I am not excited about the future

Discussion in 'Clockwork Empires General' started by Mikel, Jul 6, 2016.

  1. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    With the high price of a context switch and the prevalence of multi core processors it is sometimes better to poll rather than wait for an interrupt.
  2. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    I actually have very little to do with most of the design elements, although I'm actually doing a bunch of Gameplay Code!!!!1! over the next week which should make its way down the pipe and really, really change things. In general, I've got my hands busy with engine stuff and making it so the game doesn't crash and the AI do their damned jobs. :)
  3. Unforked

    Unforked Member

  4. Manamoo

    Manamoo Member

    I like to keep checking over and over....Then I get a SURPRISE!!! It's like the surprise in a cracker jack box...but less cheap and silly. LOL :p
    tojosan likes this.
  5. Squid Empire

    Squid Empire Member

    I'm not sure about this, I understand that you don't want to have players removing sections of the game, but at the same time automation is one of the key reasons people enjoy production chains. I like to have my workshop set up to make what I need and then to ignore it for the rest of the game while I focus on other things (which are a bit few and far between at the moment) until it slows or stops due to some problem I should address.
    It really kills the feeling of colonial progression I feel to find that you have to keep checking up constantly on your older workshops when you'd much rather be laying out nice streets or new homes for middle class workers.
    Going back to old workshops should be a matter of upgrading them to produce more, not continually micromanaging and maintaining them.
    The repair chests at the moment are broken due to that multiplication bug, but even unbroken I think they're going to be a hassle, being some material you have to be constantly producing. I feel like they're just going to end up being a continual drain on resources, meaning even more overseers and colonists will be tied up in mines or woodcutter shops when I'd rather have a pub or a chemist.
    Samut likes this.
  6. Tikigod

    Tikigod Member

    Whilst that was certainly a problem some time ago, the change of 'one job per object, removal of any concept of queues' I felt was enough of a solution toward that. Even if you were to introduce multi-module production chains it would likely require doing it as two distinctly different per-modules orders... say you'd have to have a industrial saw set to make "Stage 1 - Timber blocks" and then a workbench set to make "Stage 2 - Support beams".... personally I'd be cool with that as it involves the player and is a active thing.

    The steps that have actually be taken however have, if anything, reintroduced the old problem under another guise. Now you build one carpentry workshop with 5 workbenches, set 3 of them to have a minimum number of:

    * Planks
    * Bric-a-Brac
    * Repair Chests

    And then use the other 2+ workbenches to act as your micro-managed juggle queue for when the above 3 things are at sufficient levels... that's all the players doing. There's no evolution in player engagement in terms of gameplay to forcing the player to have 3 static constantly queued benches doing nothing but churning out 3 things in a infinite loop and then having any other production sourced from that output so you then just use an additional set of benches as your queue buffer.

    If you want to be more efficient, you build 2 carpentry workshops. One with 3 benches just with fixed orders for those 3 things. Then another carpentry workshop with 4-5 benches that act as you current active queue.

    It's just clunkier and not quite balanced with the starting loadouts that are still based on colonist numbers suited for the old system.

    Now if Bric-a-Bric wasn't the divine and holy resource that is the father of creation for all other non-production goods on the planet, this would be slightly different as this would then change the situation to being a static 2 benches with a fixed minimum # order always present for planks and Repair chests and then the player manages the rest based on what they want to build.... or a rug might need cloth so they set up cloth production for a stint, and windows might need frames that need logs which sets off frame production for a stint... that would be injecting player engagement into it somewhat.

    But Bric-a-Bric as the father of all things just introduces another layer of fixed orders that means one more production module and one more worker the player has to have tied up to a infinite loop.... and after writing this I realise that's the same rationale that has been applied to repair chests....

    Bric-a-Bric is the god of creation for all non-production goods. Repair chests are the god of continued life for the rest of the colony... there's really nothing 'player engagement involved' to either.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
    Naffarin likes this.
  7. mistrornge

    mistrornge Member

    Moving to the bric-a-brac was a simplification in coding correct? That change would make other things flow better. I understand why it makes sense but the chests seem like a huge step into pain. As others have said it is a huge resource sink making a number of biomes nearly impossible. The game is more challenging now but not really more fun.
    Right now I have to repair every building once every 5 days or everything comes to a standstill. It eats at an already stressed shop - carpentry and requires another team to spend a good chunk of time gathering and repairing.
    More player interaction could be more story arcs or determining the direction of science (not super detailed like Civ but perhaps in that direction where one tech is needed to get to updates your colony needs because of outside forces requiring you to adapt).
    I like the use of the Foreign House to get new techs by trading or by getting to a certain diplomacy point. Make it something to work towards not just set up and occasionally up the number of jobs to keep the chests being made.
    Samut and Manamoo like this.
  8. DaCrAzYmOfO

    DaCrAzYmOfO Member

    @mistrornge I like what you stated about the arcs influencing specific technologies. I certainly hope it gets implemented in the game.

    For example, so far there's really only 6 basic enemies in clockwork empires -
    1. fish people
    2. bandits
    3. obeliskians
    4. selenians
    5. foreign powers
    6. wildlife.

    It would be wonderful to have to research weapons or even upgrades to said weapons, specifically to combat these threats; as it is weapons are only basic upgrades to make your soldiers better at soldiering.

    Got a swarm of beetles heading your way? Make blunderbusses and clear the swarms!
    Selenians coming and you can't hit them with your normal weapons? Research pitchblende production for pistols/Rifles!
    Fishpeople berzerkers running at you after you shoot them numerous times? Research revolvers or carbines and shoot them faster!

    This would obviously add more to the micromanagement of the game; that being said normal weapons would do the same damage, just not as effective against specific enemies.

    It would also make you fear story arcs a little more - no more ahhh i'll just conscript all the lower class workers into the milita, they'll eventually fight em off, but more like OH GOD HERE COMES THE OBELISKIANS AND WE DON'T HAVE STEAMKNIGHTS TO BLOW EM APART WHAT DO I DO NOOOOOOO!!

    You know 'namsayin?
    tojosan likes this.
  9. tojosan

    tojosan Member

  10. Alavaria

    Alavaria Member

    It's better as not only does the game punish you for more workbenches with more upkeep, it will also cut down the building quality, unless you add decor (for even more upkeep).

    Of course you could also really micromanage, the minimum # needed depends on throughput, while the maximum is basically "one for every item".

    Rather than giving you a better alternative, the game punishes you both for micromanaging and also for trying to avoid micromanaging.
    Samut likes this.
  11. Rentahamster

    Rentahamster Member

    IIRC, decor doesn't cost upkeep. At least, rugs don't.
  12. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    Carpets did for me
  13. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    That would be a bug. And it has been fixed!
  14. Tikigod

    Tikigod Member

    Indeed, in my eyes they're opposite sides of the same workshop loop mentality.

    Bric-A-Brac are the static fixed loop you have to set up for all things decor.

    Repair chests are the static fixed loop you have to set up for all things production module.

    Player involvement wise, there's really no notable difference in how they exist and no actual player involvement in managing them after you establish the infinite output loop. You either set up the fixed outputs and keep it ever churning to an appropriate minimum order, or you have no decor and you have no functioning production modules.

    Edit: To elaborate a bit more....

    Previously if something broke down for example it might been logs, or planks, or stone, or iron and such. And the player had to ensure all areas of their economy had such goods available be it from internal production, or external trade. Now you just set up a one-time loop order in a workshop for repair chests and leave that module and worker forever allocated to that task to keep the numbers at the minimum setting.... if modules still break down like they used to along with the upkeep, I've yet to see it happen once in the latest experimental.

    In the same way, if you want decor. Previously you might need cloth, or clay, or bricks, or gold, or wood, or iron. And the player had to ensure their economy had those goods sourced to produce that specifically desired decor item. Now you just set up whatever workshop has the more abundant raw resource to then churn out a minimum amount of bric-a-brac that then turns into any decor you desire. The most player involved the process gets is if you're running low on wood but have a healthy clay influx and so you shuffle your bric-a-brac infinite minimum order loop from one workshop to the other once or twice in a entire colonies life.

    Neither introduce anything interesting or player engaging to the mix. In fact it removes from the player involved process entirely, and just reallocates the duty to a one time order assignment and forget about it system helped along by the new production system where tasks are assigned to a specific object that owns it indefinitely or until the order is filled so you always know that it will be done and don't even need to manage order queues... Workbench 2 will always have that order assigned to it, and nothing can ever change that except the player.

    Is it simplified and much easier to balance? Sure.

    Is it less prone to players fucking up their colony due to inexperience or making bad decisions? Sure.

    Does it come at the cost of removing pretty much all the player involvement from the process and simplifies everything down to the more basic concept conceivable? Yep.

    And does it introduce a enforced need on the player to upscale the few workshops that will be home for the few infinite loops so they can have enough 'spare' production modules to be assigned the real on-demand production tasks and manpower involved in them in order to see any kind of forward momentum in their colony? Indeedy

    If that's the goal for the changes, fair enough. Mission accomplished.

    But if the goal was to introduce more player involvement and remove the 'problem' of just setting a few fixed minimum orders in one or at most two workshops and walking away having nothing further to do with the entire process, then that's the complete opposite to where things have headed.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2016
    Samut likes this.
  15. Tikigod

    Tikigod Member

    On a side thought, if the entire idea that the changes are about player engagement or trying to resolve previous problems is all nonsense, and the main motivation behind the changes is to find a replacement for the old claim that the challenge in larger colonies would stem from colonist management and a large risk factor in ever achieving a large colony would stem from the depth of colonist simulation that has since seemingly either been dialled back or completely abandoned.

    And so that replacement is a much more artificial drag force in the economy to slow down player rate of growth with gunk... that would go much further to understanding the thinking and intention behind the new additions.... as collectively the recent changes are certainly quite prudent at achieving that when introduced alongside the changes to immigration.