Option to quit without updating saved game

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Bohandas, Aug 23, 2013.

  1. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    I would like to have the option to quit without updating my save.

    That Is to say that the next time I loaded the game I would pick up at the last time I hit "Save and Continue"; rather than picking up at where I quit. I'm sick of having to shut down the game from the task manager.
  2. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Defeats whole point of roguelikes. Even for a roguelike-lite, the whole one of the cornerstones of the genre is no save-scumming, no wiping out of mistakes you made by save/reload. You should be grateful the devs didn't apply the genre standard and have savegames automatically delete themselves on load to prevent this exact behaviour.
    Arron Syaoran and Vitellozzo like this.
  3. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    I am of those standards; but we don't all have to be sheep and do what everyone else does.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  4. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    And you don't tear down a fence without knowing what it's holding back. Change for the sake of change, especially when it goes against the definition of a game's genre, is stupid. You might as well say "let's remove the guns from a first-person shooter, we don't all have to be sheep."
    Vitellozzo likes this.
  5. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    Isn't that Portal?
  6. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Portal is a puzzle game rendered with the source engine. It doesn't even pretend to be a shooter, let alone a first-person one; comparing it to Half-Life would be comparing a 2-D run and gun shooter to a puzzle platformer made with the same engine and saying "look, they're totally the same genre!"

    Delusional. Again, tell me the reason why you must have save scumming aside from "I, in my subjective opinion, don't like it, and hence I want to make it official for everyone!"

    If you want to save scum, go ahead; devs make auto-deleting saves, players make backups out of folder, devs detect moved saves, so on, ad infinitum. Just don't expect official support for it.
  7. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    Zeno Clash then.
    or Dark Messiah of Might and Magic.
    or parts of Escape From Butcher Bay.

    I could ask a similar question of you. Why should the game be needlessly restricted other than rigid adherence to meaningless tradition?
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  8. Xavion

    Xavion Member

    You're skipping the most important question. Why do you want this Bohandas? Clearly it's something that can't be circumvented just by turning off permadeath, so what is the problem? Since getting rid of the cause should also get rid of this effect which is probably more useful anyway.
  9. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Zeno Clash:

    "Zeno Clash is a first-person fighting video game, with some elements of a first-person shooter. It is the debut game of Chilean developer ACE Team and uses Valve Corporation's Source engine."

    Does not claim to be a first-person shooter.

    Dark Messiah of Might and Magic:

    "Dark Messiah of Might and Magic, additionally subtitled Elements on Xbox 360, is a first-person action game with role-playing elements developed by Arkane Studios and Floodgate Entertainment."

    Does not claim to be a first-person shooter, and does not claim to be a strategy game like the original Might and Magic games.

    The third-person scenes from Escape from Butcher Bay? A much smaller part of the game compared to the first-person shooter areas. Are you going to argue that any game with a gambling minigame automatically turns it into a casino simulator? Furthermore, it does not ditch guns.

    More word-weaseling. Number one, you're the one asking for the changes from something no other player has complained about due to them understanding what the game is before they bought it, so the burden of proof is upon you to prove that the changes are an objective net benefit strong enough to be imposed upon the entire playerbase. Number two, the reason save on quit stands is more than "meaningless tradition", which is in your own subjective opinion once more. It's not just a) a genre-defining aspect the genre, but b) a core design tenet of the devs as well when it comes to difficulty. Genre lines are there for a reason. They tell a player what can be reasonably expected from a game, and allow for easier comparison to what players know.

    You can take it out, of course. It just ceases to be what it is. Go ahead, although Chinese, Indian and Shinto Buddhism are vastly different, ask a Buddhist to ditch the idea of Buddha and Nirvana and see if they can be rightly defined as Buddhists. Although gameplay elements vary, ask a shooter to ditch guns, and it's no longer a shooter. The devs specifically set out to make a roguelike-lite which still has considerable difficulty, as set out in both their main page posts and the tutorial, not a game specifically tailored to your desires. While you're at it, why not ask them to take out the Madness mechanic from Clockwork Empires as well?

    Seriously, it's like taking a game designed to be played with a mouse and demanding that it be completely overhauled to implement touchpad support.

    Sure, one can always disagree with aspects of the game. But everyone has an opinion, and the devs' are ultimately those who count; this forum is here to attempt to persuade their opinion to yours, not make demands and shout protests at fortissimo with little reason other than "I don't like it", because you clearly are the arbitrator of subjective opinion as opposed to the majority of posters on the forum, who have no objections to the loosely-enforced anti-save scumming. If you don't like what the devs are doing in this regard, you can always do what Matt Roziak did and make your own game with everything you like in it, with your favourite elements X, Y and Z. That's exactly what many modders have done to DoD, on a smaller scale. Don't like bad krongs? Tweak the ivalue so they never happen. Don't like corruption? Remove the corrupting effects from spellDB. Don't like anything in the game? Just cut it out to suit your own tastes.

    Again, this game is highly moddable. Whatever you don't like that's causing you to save scum, just mod it out. This reminds me of the "why are there no female icons for everything?" argument some time ago, whereby the answer was exceedingly simple: "if you want more icons of the female hero, draw them and mod them in instead of asking for it to be imposed on everyone, then anyone who wants said icons can download and use them." Does everyone ought to enjoy a game how they want it to be played? Sure, yes. That's what the modding tools are there for. Thing is that making requests that can already be worked around saps time and energy from the devs who have other things to work on. Do you think Essence makes all those crazy spell chains for nothing?

    Save scumming. As to why, I have my suspicions; see this thread.
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
  10. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    As an addendum: There's already a very simple way to do what you want. Play with debug mode on, and alt-f4 will send you back to the title screen without saving your game. There, simple.
  11. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    Oh. Then I'll do that then. Thanks.
  12. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    Further testing shows that this does not actually work. Some of the time it exits the game but updates the save in the process.
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
  13. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Let me guess: you just had a bad krong and saved just prior so you could reload. Yes, the game specifically remembers that particular instance at times, don't ask me why.

    Use your autosave as well, in that case. Losing up to five minutes' gameplay is no big deal, or if you really must, walk up and down stairs.

    Edit: if you really want to avoid bad Krongs, just go into your tweakDB and find this line:

    <tweak name="item power granting chance" ival="4"/>

    And change it to whatever you want to make krongs more likely to be good or bad. You can always verify your game files to undo any changes to the DB files, assuming you're running Steam.

    Further edit: Seems like that ivalue's been disconnected. Nevertheless, using your autosave as a backup should work just fine.
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  14. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member


    This is, in fact, another of my pet peeves. That kind of behavior on the part of developers is completely inappropriate in a non-multiplayer game; without the need to provide fairness to competing players the only reason for that sort of development philosophy is being a control freak.
  15. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Rest assured, we're not going to go into some kind of "savescumming arms race" just because a few people want to cheese their run.

    That said, I'd personally like to know why you just don't use permadeath off? Since that's pretty much the reason it's there, for people who aren't interested in playing the traditional way.
  16. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    I do. It does not have an option to quit without saving either; You're thinking of it's option to save without quitting.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2013
  17. Bohandas

    Bohandas Member

    That's good to know. To clarify, however, I'm not just talking about savescumming. I'm also talking about things like games that try to prevent the use of things like saved game editors, trainers, etc.

    I use CTRL-A now
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2013