Making the werediggle the true terror of the night.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Vitellozzo, Dec 2, 2012.

  1. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    I'm trying suggesting things for this target, in fact. And I've tried suggesting actively used by the player gameplay mechanics, too, for the same reasons you mentioned.
    You can stay, I was hostile to useless not-new-not-engaging mechanics, not against you. And I've tried using that hostile sprint to think something else to propose you all, trying to remove from your mind manually casted powerups.

    In my last suggestion, with the terrain controll, egg launcher could be something like x% obtaining egg, y% creating a 3x3 square of aoe damage plus dirty terrain (since the egg shattered), in which the enemies get some more debuff.

    Anyway I would like to tell everyone something: every skill tree must absolve a specific function, aside from having a flavour idea. This is something I've learned here. And the specific function isn't "combat" or "utility", those two are the supergroupes of every function in the game: a skill can kill your enemies OR help your other skills kill enemies faster. Combination from those two groupes can be possible, but should be taken with attention. Werediggle could be one of those combiantions, since its heavy loses.
    For instance, Golemancy is, flavor-wise, about creating golems and unnatural living beings, but its mechanics tend to represent a skill class that play chess with its opponents. It has 2 pets, but is not really a pet class, since those are needed to control the battle place. Like the walls, a dot debuff that STAYS on a place after afflicting enemies, wall dig and bladed single hit "mines". Promethean magic is similar, but more oriented to damage multiple enemies instead of blocking them or create escape routes for the character.
    And since werediggle has the invisibility and the wall dig, I thought that it could fit a similar role.
    The entire debuff thing was here for the same reason: giving werediggle mechanics fitting a specific role, instead of just wander through its characterization. This decision is a priority, and after that we can start discussing specific skills.
    And to make that, we must change its level progression as gog made it, since we all agree the werediggle doesn't work now. If it worked, I wasn't making this post or this thread, and we weren't discussing right now, we were playing it after giving it 3x more stats.
    So: how do you see the werediggle, what should he do IN GENERAL? (try answer this also if you want it to stay somewhat similar to its original design, it's helpful too)

    :edit: i'm asking to Daynab if he can warp this discussion to Suggestion forum.
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  2. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    Bump for the new forum, otherwise we'll die here alone.:D
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  3. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    In general, according to this proposal, Werediggle should be:

    Levels 1-3 or maybe 1-4: badass combat form.
    Levels 4-8 or maybe 5-8: Roguey escape mechanism form that you pay for by losing access to all of your other skills for a while.

    There are lots of ways to do "badass combat form"; that's not even an issue. The question is can you fill 4-5 levels with meaningful Roguey tools? Egg cannon totally counts because ranged combat means evading melee combat. Invisibility is solid. Teleport is solid. Anything else make sense?
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  4. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    After all, archdiggles are leaders. And the archdiggle smash could be a so hard beat that makes the enemy forget about being your enemy.
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  5. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Ooooh...interesting and powerful. Could we arrange it so that the charm broke automatically upon you losing Diggle form?
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  6. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    Anyway, we should pack those utilities into some unique form for the werediggle, otherwise being just a "pack of useful spells" can be understimated by players, since the werediggle has its main con in the form of "lose every other spell".
    After all, non-werediggles already have invisibility, ranged, teleport and charm. For pure rogues only the charm effect is a plus. For warriors, invisibility is something new.
    Maybe werediggle could help wizards too, making them less squishy. For them the first levels could be more useful than the late ones. Mumble.
    Today I'll post a new format.
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  7. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    Some Rogue-y skills that make Werediggle form worthwhile:

    1 - A large (maybe radius 3) poison cloud which debuffs enemies against pierce damage, and causes confusion whenever they take damage. This lets you do more damage (especially in Diggle form, or with crossbows), drives a mob away from you, and lets you selectively drive away especially dangerous enemies.

    2 - Buff the wall-mining ability by giving it a chance to drop ore. (SO COOL!)

    3 - Transforming does a heal - at some level (6?) also have it replenish MP. (Your spells aren't available, but this could still totally be worthwhile for many characters).

    4 - "Carnivore" - give double benefit from eating meat-based foods while in diggle form.

    5 - Put a blinding flash effect on the transformation - so it's not a wasted turn.

    6 - Allow the transformation (both ways?) to clear debuffs.

    7 - Diggle form gives pretty good buffs to counter & dodge - have the transformation back to human grant a "feral instincts" buff which gives similar bonuses for ~15 turns. So effectively you keep some of your diggle bonuses up all the time, if you switch as frequently as possible.
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  8. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I don't think that Carnivore is possible giving the XML limitations -- you can have a FoodBuff, but not a MeatBuff. :) I'm also not sure that I like the 'feral instincts' idea, but that's just me.
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  9. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    I either don't like buffing normal form into a skill tree totally focused around getting better in an altered form.
    Nor I think carnivore is makeable, but I should check better vegan mechanics.
    I'd like to add a toxic debuffing cloud, but I'd like to make enemies less resistant against :dmg_putrefying: and :dmg_toxic:, since those elements (most of all toxic one) need some love. It could also synergy well with the Glyph of the Asp.
    The drop-upon-shattering-walls could work very well, and it could be funny too. Maybe it could drop largely a gem/ore (like 70%), with a less common possibility for some other kind of item. I would like to implement the "drilling in the floor" mechanic though, since immobilizing enemies could be very useful too.
    I don't know how to change a buff with other spells given in other levels. Heals upon transforming is possible and Essence already did this, maybe I can make it scale with :life:, so the healing effect means always something.
    And since the transformation is a healing, I don't think it's a wasted turn. But the blinding flash effect can be used in other levels, maybe as a proc. The same for clearing debuffs, but this could be more useful and less powerful than crowd control everything around you. But yeah, clearing debuffs on level0 is something I'd give with caution.
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  10. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    Ok, new build(s). Yes, I'm using the plural because I want to show you something Lorrelian made me think of.
    The standard build can be something like:
    lvl0: Diggle Form: the polymorph effect, self buff: +:dmg_piercing:, +:armor_asorb:, +:burliness:, +:caddishness:, +:melee_power:, +:dodge:, it heals the character for something scaling with :life:
    lvl1: Diggle Plague debuff: scaling, -:resist_toxic: -:resist_putrefying: to enemies, like -1 or -2, and some stat debuff, like -:caddishness: and/or -:burliness: since it debilitates the afflicted target, and it should debuff hp in this indirect way. Maybe also -:nimbleness: since yeah, you cannot dodge/aim on flu; the player receives +2:dmg_toxic:, +2:dmg_putrefying:, +2:resist_toxic:, +2:resist_putrefying: (since it cannot give you the same as Glyph of the Asp since that buff can be used also in normal form, ok you have to pay but it's 1:mana: every 10 turns).
    lvl2: Egg Launch (x% of receiving egg at the target location, y% to make an explosion-like effect, where x>>y), maybe some +:edr: since you need aim to not miss with eggs (totally flavor-wise, since spells aren't affected by EDR).
    lvl3: more physical stats, maybe a random procing rage effect to more power against less... defence? or maybe a castable rage buff reducing the defence, so you have to choose if using it or not.
    lvl4: mighty auger, wall dig, as it is, with only 1:cooldown: instead of 2, and with the possibility of dig also on the floor, creating a spellmine (or a one-time mine) which paralize who steps on it for infinite turns: each turn it has a percentage of negating the effect (the monster managed to exit the hole); this secoundary effect gives you a debuff negating more casts until the cooldown cease. Also, any digging has a percentage to drop metal ores or gems, and a minor percentage to drop something else.
    lvl5: going commando, a buff that gives you invisibility and big :sneakiness:; also some passive +:sneakiness:
    lvl6: archdiggle smash, damaging enemies scaling with :caddishness: and :burliness:/:melee_power:. I would like to give this some utility too, and it could Charm the target for some turns, AND only after the end of the charm it could damage the target.
    lvl7: I really still don't know what capstone this build can have, maybe a spell (that consume mp) which could just taunt the enemy, with a secoundary more powerful effect depending on which Diggle God Bless the character has, like --:resist_piercing: for Diggle God of Digging or summon of a diggle near the enemy for the Diggle God of Fertility, and stuff like that.

    I don't think I can just boost the werediggle more than what I've done with this suggestion, but I would like you to spend some other time reading this other possible solution, that could give more power to werediggle AND more utility without breaking the game.
    Shapeshifter werediggle:
    lvl0: Diggle Form: as usual, just look up to see the possible effect.
    From now on, there will be more polymorphing effects, which can be used only in Werediggle Form. Those will boost some aspects regarding that particular diggle, while decreasing something that Diggle is not good at. Anyway the base stats of the Diggle Form are taken into account when giving each form its own stats. Each form will just remove the Werediggle Curse buff the character cast with the lvl0 spell, and will replace it with another similar buff. This will also change the colour of the diggle matching its new form (like the monsters subfamilies do).
    Each form can have a spell to return in the normal Diggle Form and (if you want, I would not) another spell to change subfamily (example: you are a standard Diggle, with a skill you can become an Archdiggle and in that form you can return when you want to diggle form, or change with another form like Enraged Diggle). Each form will have its own skills, not usable in other forms (they will not appear in not-matching forms).
    Finally, each form will give you a debuff that will prevent you returning in that particular form for some time (another example: you are a Diggle, change into Archdiggle; after that, changing into another form will prevent you to return in Archdiggle form for some time). This is to help mitigating the duration reset of the buffs, because if you keep changing from diggle to archdiggle to diggle to again archdiggle you could always stay in the form you want. Instead those are all powerful buffs that must be used with caution.
    I hope everything is clear. If not, aks me everything you want. Let's now return to build discussion:
    lvl1: Sickly Diggle Form:
    - boot +:dmg_putrefying: +:dmg_toxic: +:resist_toxic: +:resist_putrefying: passive related bonuses, but you lose some :life:, :burliness:, :nimbleness: and something like that
    - you gain random procing Diggle Plague debuff that can infect others
    - you can cast a medium-short aoe spell to create a cloud of gasses, doing damage to anyone in this square and giving them randomly Diggle Plague debuff
    - you gain a debuff removal that will require, to be casted, you to be afflicted by Diggle Plague yourself
    lvl2: Enraged Diggle Form:
    - big boost to physical stats like :burliness: and :caddishness:, while losing :stubborness:, :sagacity: and :savvy:
    - you gain a random procing buff which is basically a sort of Feral Instinct-like rage, which boost your :melee_power: and :life_regen: but lowers your :armor_asorb: and you cannot use spells while having this buff...
    - ... BUT you have 50% chance upon hitting enemies to make them bleed and stunning them
    lvl3: It Comes out of Where?!: this skill could just spawn the egg as it already do in diggle form, OR it could be launched as everyone suggested; anyway this is the effect of the simple Diggle Form; while in other forms, the effect is changed into:
    - Sickly Diggle Form: it creates a 3x3 aoe with oil-like visual effect, those caught into the area will take another, not-stacking debuff named Salmonella (because yeah, the game just need this disease), maybe with a dot effect too
    - Enraged Diggle Form: the egg shatter upon impact, causing a "Cogito Ergo Splat-like aoe" (basically 3x3 plus a cross with the same center and each cross-arm long 2 tiles) which damage enemies with :melee_power:scaling damage
    - Commando Diggle Form: the egg could knock back its target, or it could create a cross shaped blinding effect, reducing targets :edr:
    - Archdiggle Form: the egg is hatched upon shattering on the target, and a Diggle is summoned (it could be a special diggle, created for this single effect)
    Anyway, all those abilities, aside from the Normal Form, will not give the egg, since the secoundary effect is valuable.
    lvl4: The Mighty Auger: this could be the same as the other build suggested, every form would have it without changing its effect, since every diggle has a drill nose.
    lvl5: Commando Diggle Form:
    - it should boost :sneakiness: very high, and also :crit: and :dodge:, while debuffing :armor_asorb:, :melee_power: and :life:
    - you gain a random very high percentage upon hitting enemies to become invisible, and also a castable invisibility
    - hitting enemies being invisible will stun them, and they will take additional :resist_piercing: damage
    - anyway upon being hit you gain debuffs to :sneakiness: and :edr:, making hitting enemies and escaping more difficult
    lvl6: Archdiggle Form:
    - boost :caddishness: and :sagacity:, against the lose of :sight:, :trap_sense: and :counter: (becoming something so powerful makes you so full of yourself you forget about the surroundings)
    - you gain aoe effects for melee strikes, like reverse-T shapes
    - you gain the Archdiggle Smash, with the effect like I've already explained
    - you gain the antimagic cloud of Archmage Diggles, but doing it will give you a debuff for -:life_regen: and a :dam_voltaic:dot named Archmages' punishment.
    lvl7: dunno, it could be the already suggested Diggle Gods buff or it could be a Muscolar Diggle form, or maybe a new spell for every form (better) with some pratical effect. Oh, yeah, the teleport.
    It can be then a teleport without imposed templates, and upon exiting (and/or entering) it can create a cross-shaped earthquake, damaging enemies and stunning them. An useful teleport for both escaping and entering melee zone.

    I'd really prefer this option, it could be really funny without changing the idea of the werediggle and without giving it strange mechanics; each form can have lots of personal space for notes for the spells and everything to make the player not confused by the mole of possibilities. And this is something more than just boosting numbers or giving too many abilities into a single "buff".
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  11. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    So, with the standard build, we have dig, item (craft and eatable) drop, invisibility, debuffs, ranged option, charm and I have to put somewhere the teleport; and a little of tankyness. All together.
    With my proposal we can have all those above, plus Silence, more tankish form, aoes, knockback and simply more options to choose from. But one cannot do everything together, since you must choose what do you want to do in a particular moment, with a stance-like mechanic.
    Any thoughts, suggestions, critics from anyone?
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  12. Ablogqwer

    Ablogqwer Member

    Combined with the innate utility abilities from being a diggle itself and the increase to stats (remember: Buffs are maintained despite being in diggle form AND procs still work) I find diggles to be incredibly powerful when used correctly with them as your primary focus.

    Running a blood magic/werediggle with any selection of self-buffing and on hit proc skillsets (I found myself dipping into master of arms, warlockery, and vampirism for starters...) resulted in absolutely massive amounts of damage and insane resistances for minimal cost.

    Much like any other gimmicky skillset, they really require building *around* to become very useful...

    Necroeconomics and rogue scientist both come to mind.
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  13. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    This is not something I consider being weak, I really like the idea behind the werediggle and I found the skill tree funny to be used, and somehow powerful on its own. It was in my only build that made after the fight with Dredmor, after all.
    But I consider it being too much restricted. More than Necro and Rogue Scientist, I think that it's more similar to Vampirism in terms of build setup: too little customization is involved behind it. The vampire desperately needs something with as biggest :life_regen: as possible, otherwise its abilities will give less-to-none vantages, while it really restricts the player. And the werediggle is even more restricted with the only option working behind the polymorph: procs.
    This is not a complain about the effective power, but there are few good procs for something so simple minded: things like :sneakiness:scaling or :mana: hungry needs more workaround behind them, while the werediggle offers a little for them too, but just as a flavour bonus, for balancing issues. Than there it comes what I want to do with the werediggle: not making it more powerful than now, but to make it less monobuild, making some other options interessants too.
    After all it's a try, I'm not officially able to change nothing for anyone. But, when this will be ready, if it will be considered good by anyone, I'll be happy anyway.
    After all it's not horrible broken or something similar, and the game is very solid on its own.
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  14. Ablogqwer

    Ablogqwer Member

    Technically not true. You still get the bonuses from weapon skills while in werediggle form.
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  15. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    I've considered also this in the entire thread, and anyway the damage output isn't mantained in the alteration. It is still a little for a skill in a game with this much potential of build selection.
    So you are saying werediggle needs no change whatsoever, and it can just beat the game as any other skill tree in the game?
    I wanted to make it more utility-friendly, since polymorphing into the werediggle gives you no real advantage against a simple warrior with the same skillset and another combat-focused skill instead of werediggle. The only unique skill is the egg drop, since it can be used for creating more powerful healing item. And on lower difficulties, it could be used as a source of :life_regen: if your build doens't support it in other skills, but on going rogue is really low as a health source.
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  16. Ablogqwer

    Ablogqwer Member

    Except for the fact dual-wielding bonuses are doubled, and it cancels all bonuses (and penalties) from other skills-so building a self-buffing blood magic type means you will have tons and tons of mana to feed your buffs and, when you come out of it, still be able to cast all your spells.

    Asking for more utility is foolish-in a single skill tree you can spawn items, turn yourself invisible, use a debuff that doesn't break stealth, tunnel through walls, and have a skill that does massive amounts of damage.

    On TOP of, at minimum, +1 bonus to every single one of your resistances.

    The difficulty is you all seem to be under the strange opinion that werediggles are warrior types instead of being firmly in utility-just like most rogue-types. No, I don't expect to beat a warrior in melee. However, I do expect to be able to spot them-buff myself-and then nuke the shit out of them or transform&fight/invisibility/run away if I need to.
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  17. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    So, is this the final suggestion? Should I try to work one or both of these into the ECSRII?
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  18. Follow the advice of John Carmack:
    "Focused, hard work is the real key to success. Keep your eyes on the goal, and just keep taking the next step towards completing it. If you aren't sure which way to do something, do it both ways and see which works better."
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  19. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    This was something I had in mind even without never hearing that quotation, but the last post (Ablogqwer) made me think about the need of changing werediggle into something different from core werediggle.
    I don't own anything, Essence. I'm not even playing the game in those days, since Wakfu and exams, so I will not work on werediggle until March. I've started coding the second possibility, but as I said, Ablog made me thinking more than twice about it.
    I suppose you can make every change you want, if you don't want to wait for me.
    But I'll definitivelly make something in the next future.
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  20. Vitellozzo

    Vitellozzo Member

    Ehi, I'm back.
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