Indirect nerf of crafting

Discussion in 'Conquest of the Wizardlands' started by Heartnet, Aug 2, 2012.

  1. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    For what it's worth, if you want less rng you can remove all the hidden=1 tags in the xml
    mining and shaken like this.
  2. Lucentdepths

    Lucentdepths Member

    How about a research system?

    Bookshelves no longer give recipes for crafting, but instead a various amount of research points dependent on dungeon level, with a variable to keep stuff random.

    The new Investigator skill would still have the capability of directly gaining recipes (though it could gain research points as you 'investigate' things too I suppose), and you could potentially find actual recipes other places (which would still be worthwhile for rarer recipes).

    It would take some work to do, both in coding and balancing.. what is the proper range of RP to gain at each dungeon level? From there, we ask, "what do we think an appropriate dungeon level would be for the quality of this particular (X) recipe?" and assign value's to each recipe, with stronger "higher tier/lower depth" recipes costing more.

    Some recipes would require a progression of learning (You cant build a nuclear plant if you dont even understand basic fossil fuels.. build a coal plant first!)... unless you managed to find the actual recipe in game, which would either give it to you right away, or unlock it for purchase without requiring the previous recipes (I dont understand how this nuclear plant WORKS, but I've got the blueprints!).

    Just a quick rudimentary overlook of it but it would potentially fix the issues if time was given to such a system.

    1: Players could spend their research on recipes they will actually use.
    2: Players will not have enough points on dungeon level 1 to learn high end recipes like fruitful staff etc.. unless they get incredibly lucky with the RNG and get a TON of bookshelves and maybe find the recipe itself to unlock it without any sort of prerequisite.

    If done right players will be able to *earn* the recipes they want, while preventing them from simply jumping to the most powerful recipes (usually!) without any progression from the start (balance!)
  3. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    I like Lucent's Idea. Although i would think that it would be best implemented on top of the current system I mean it isn't realistic that you would find some recipe on EVERY shelf ever. But if you could get random recipes for any craft and at the same time get some amount of research for a randomly chosen craft, that you could do toward researching skills, it would be cool.
  4. Wintergreen

    Wintergreen Member

    But then people would complain that recipes cost too much.
  5. TheKirkUnited

    TheKirkUnited Member

    I've done an all craftable run before. It sounds laughable at first but is actually completely awesome. As long as you can tolerate the absurd amount of inventory management that is required, you will always have the answer in every situation. You can wear the heaviest armor because who cares about spells when you have wands and potions and explosives, etc.

    This has been vastly simplified by the addition of the pocket dimension and made even more viable/powerful by the addition of crusts. There are crusts for every crafting skill. (This blew my mind when I first realized it. For some reason I thought crusts would be just for smiths and tinkers. Silly me.)

    I might have to go make another craft monger now. I've pretty much talked myself into it.
  6. Warlock

    Warlock Member

    I am making a craft monger now. All crafting skills, Perception, then Clockwork Knight and Rogue Scientist. Come at me bros, I've got explosives and am unafraid to use them.
    TheKirkUnited likes this.
  7. prototype00

    prototype00 Member

    I think I would be a lot less aggravated with crafting if all the bookshelves had something on them. With all the recipes to get through to get a particular one, its quite soul destroying to see "you find nothing of interest on this bookshelf" for the fifth time in one floor (I'm going by YMNTEP and not COTWL here)

  8. Warlock

    Warlock Member

    Crafting trip report on dlvl 1: It's... hard at first. You need to focus on trap disarm and try conservative play. I was almost killed twice, by a Tree of Woe boss and an Unfriendly AI. Then I found a Burning Tome to use as a weapon along with a nice spear from the Bee Arthur boss. The heads flied in melee after that. I've put most of my levels so far into skills which give me trap detect and avoidance. My last level went into Rocket punch. This is without permadeath on just for the sake of the trip, anyway. My pocket dimension has materials up the gills now. And a few spare wands. I've also found two bolts of squid and one of mass destruction. I'm waiting on enough wand lore soon that I can craft tentacular wands with those bolts. I also have a few very nice wands from the beginning (Naarwhaand, Icicly Wand, Wand of Laser, plus three (count 'em, three) zodiacal wands and a gelatinous wand which I also found while derping around on dlvl 1. I'm just going over the wizardlands now (without pulling any stupid levers since I'm not equipped to deal with those $#%@* clones just yet) before moving on to dlvl 2.
  9. Though it seems an unpopular opinion, I'd like to echo the worry that the crusts have added too many recipes to the mix. I personally dislike this, as I've done 3 runs so far trying to achieve "I Didn't Ask for This" and always fall one recipe short by the time I hit DL 15. Crusts have diluted my chances even more of ever actually achieving this!
  10. Heartnet

    Heartnet Member

    Yep all crafting skills and perception, burglary and rogue scientist fun and really strong
  11. SamuelMarston

    SamuelMarston Member

    I've noticed that on my latest run (CotWL), I haven't found a single empty bookcase. It could be that there are just so many new recipes that the dice have rolled that way, but I do find it odd that I haven't gotten a single one. I'm okay with that. I'd be happy if that feature went away.

    I'd say to balance it out there could be fewer bookcases, but with the amount of recipes now, I'm going to need them.
  12. Frelus

    Frelus Member

    There still are empty ones, I think.
    I believe remembering that I ran into one today.
  13. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    They happen much less often, but they still happen.
  14. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    I've gotten tons more recipes with Paranormal Investigator skill -- it synergizes well with crafting, kind of like Perception, but gives recipes instead of mats.
  15. Warskull

    Warskull Member

    I think a research system is too deterministic for this game. It is a rogue-like. A research system boils down to saving up for the best recipes. The current random system has the advantage that maybe you can't make the best sword in the game or maybe you get a great item on DL1.

    I wouldn't mind the system being cleaned up a bit with all the new recipes. For example, maybe move some of the less popular recipes to being known by default.

    I also like the idea of weighted randomness. The more points you put into a crafting skill the more likely you are to get items from the crafting skill.
  16. Lucentdepths

    Lucentdepths Member

    Obviously didn't actually read what I wrote.
  17. Warskull

    Warskull Member

    Yes, I did, and it isn't really a random system. Effectively it is a system where you get XP to research items. The XP values might be random, but the effect is still the same. The player will figure out the best way to traverse the tech tree and follow it. It would be like if the shops let you put together your own artifact out of any weapon. Sure your zorkmid levels are random, but in the end you'll just make the best piece of gear. Just because you can't make the sword of uber on DL1 doesn't mean you won't be saving for it every single game. Quite simply, your system isn't really appropriate for a game like Dredmor where the randomness is a core part of the gameplay.

    The current crafting system is fairly good. It just needs some tweaks. Instead of blank pages, it should reroll until you get something. Weighting the rewards towards crafting lines the player actually has would help too.
    Kazeto likes this.
  18. Maze1125

    Maze1125 Member

    I think the system could be made better if the "blank" shelves told you what recipe you got a repeat of, so you'd at least know why you weren't getting anything new.
    As it is, the bookshelves seem to get less useful as you go lower, with no reason given, which is an unnecessary annoyance.

    Not that I'd be against the shelves always giving something useful...
    Kazeto likes this.
  19. Darkmere

    Darkmere Member

    Clearly we need a Conan the Librarian skillset where the capstone lets you recharge bookshelves. "Shush" silence spell, librarian glasses starter item, and small bonus when wielding books are also a given.
    Kazeto likes this.
  20. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    I think Alien Autopsy works well for the recipe issue, if you don't believe monster farming is against the spirit of the game.

    I do think it'd be nice if crafters weren't as reliant on the RNG in general, but I see Wizardlands (and the resulting farming) to be just the thing for them. Might take longer to finish your run, but it'll be satisfying!