i don't understand the hate for dredmor's graphics

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by SkyMuffin, Jun 8, 2012.

  1. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    That's because the guys you heard complaining are/were elitists. And people whom you can label as "elitists" are almost never good (there are very rare exceptions, but I would like to put the emphasis on "very rare"), as most of them insist on calling everything below some arbitrary standard level to be crud without even taking a look at it, often for inappropriate reasons.

    I mean, seriously, many good roguelikes can be played with tilesets instead of ASCII, and that doesn't make them any worse. Graphics (and those aren't super-duper-3D-whatever, but mere pixel art and 2D sprites) don't make it any worse as a roguelike game, it is still part of the genre, it just is not as complicated as, let's say, Nethack, and it's more accessible for people who aren't aiming to become hardcore players just to be able to beat one game. If anything, I'd say it's a "casual roguelike game", but the word "roguelike" is still there, it just isn't the only word.
    TheJadedMieu, jadkni and OmniNegro like this.
  2. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I'm not a big fan of modern 3d games. Games like skyrim for example look cold and dead to me because the characters reach the uncanny valley. Though the landscapes in that game do look pretty amazing. I much prefer handdrawn artwork and 2d games. Additionally, modern games often try to put an emphasis on realism vs. gameplay. I don't want to play a life simulator, I live life. I suppose realism would be more important to me if I lived in my parent's basement or whatever. I want fun and accessable gameplay. Also, games like dredmor with less advanced graphics are easily made by smaller teams and can reach niche audiences like myself and cost a lot less money.

    The other problem with modern games is the hardware required to play them. Gaming rigs are not cheap and need to be updated every few years. I have a gaming desktop, but I'd much rather sit on the couch with my internet browsing laptop and play a game like dredmor.

    It's too bad that the gaming industry doesn't cater to gamers like me. I'm just glad distributers like steam are finally putting indie games like dredmor into my hands. I've put 10x the hours into this game than I did into skyrim and diablo3 combined.
    Frelus, TheJadedMieu, Marak and 2 others like this.
  3. Marak

    Marak Member

    This. 100 times this. The only "AAA" title I've purchased in the last 2 years was StarCraft II. Of all the games I've played in the last 3 years (WoW, StarCraft II, Terraria, Torchlight, League of Legends, Minecraft, Dungeons of Dredmor, Legend of Grimrock, Avernum 6, Avernum: Escape from the Pit, Avadon, Jamestown, Cave Story +, I could go on...), guess which one has the worst $-to-hours-played ratio? Hint: it's a toss-up between the two Blizzard Titles.

    Moar OT: Yeah, I've heard the people who say that DoD isn't a "real" Roguelike because it has a comprehensible UI and an animated tileset and isn't as complex as some of the more ridiculous Roguelikes out there.

    Eh, more power to them. I consider myself a pretty hardcore gamer - at least where RPGs are concerned, and after playing so much DoD I can't bring myself to play any of the "really good" Roguelikes. Tried Powder, was unimpressed. Tried Stone Soup and my head was spinning with obscure commands by the end of the 4th tutorial. "Don't forget, do to This Thing you can alt-shift-ctrl-mouse button 7 or shift-ctrl-windows key-caps lock L!"

    I always end up back in good old DoD. The humour and accessibility trump all else, at least for me.
    FaxCelestis and OmniNegro like this.
  4. klaymen_sk

    klaymen_sk Member

    Sturgeon's Law ad extremum? :)
    Kazeto likes this.
  5. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    To put it in a way that is easy to understand, yes.

    But a more complete answer would be "Sturgeon's law ad extremum, using a gradation system that doesn't put appropriate weight on graded elements". Like with the roguelike elitists, who seem to be using a gradation system for DoD in which 90~95% of points that the game can get are for graphics, and normally not even gameplay is weighted that heavily when grading games (and gameplay is more important than graphics).
    OmniNegro likes this.
  6. banjo2E

    banjo2E Member

    Now, see, I still use a CRT TV for my console gaming, so it looks just fine to me.
    Warlock likes this.
  7. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    To be fair, DC Stone Soup is a pretty amazing game. It's just not accessible. I've put hours and hours into that game but I have to relearn the interface every time I pick it up. It's also insanely harder. With careful play and a reasonable build you will beat dredmor. The combat mechanics are far less complex, but a little more fair.

    I don't think that makes the game worse. Just different.

    But I personally wouldn't mind just a touch more complexity added to the game mechanics and some difficulty added to the game beyond damage/hp.

    But still, this game is pretty amazing so it's hard to knock its flaws.
  8. jadkni

    jadkni Member

    Crawl is a totally different beast than DoD. DoD is more in the class of "short" roguelikes such as Cardinal Quest and Lost Labyrinth. In that context, it holds up very well in terms of content.
  9. Marak

    Marak Member

    I think a lot of it comes down to me being a sucker for accessibility. Once Stone Soup started talking about how lower-case and upper-case letters were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT COMMANDS and that I had to do pointless, obscure shit like dig through 8 different menus and use 4 different commands simply to change my weapon or Quiver something to throw or shoot, or use a command like shift-. (read: >) to use a stairway (instead of, you know, walking over it?), it totally lost me.

    Stone Soup might be a game I really enjoy the mechanics of, but if I have to have a text document open at all times list 7 dozen alt- and shift- commands, or be opening the Help menu for every action other than Move and Melee Attack - that means that I'm not playing the game, I'm fighting with it's UI. And that is the opposite of fun, especially when you're in your 30s, married with a kid, and working 40+ hours a week.

    My free time is limited. If I'm going to play a game, I'm gonna play a game. Not have a game try my patience while I attempt to decipher it. I only wish I had the time and patience to master games like Stone Soup and Dwarf Fortress, they sound amazing once you've got a handle on them. I guess I'll just have to "settle" for DoD and the upcoming Game of Dwarves (which looks like Dwarf Fortress and Dungeon Keeper II mashed together, which has the potential to be the Greatest Game Everâ„¢ if done properly).
  10. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    A roguelike is NOT defined by graphics. There are many who think it is a must for roguelikes to have extremely minimalist approaches to the audiovisual aspect, but I strongly disagree - graphical simplicity does not make a game a roguelike any more than it makes any other type of game. Crysis and Doom are both run-and-gun FPS games, despite the obvious disparity in audiovisual sophistication. A game is more than the sum of its parts.
    OmniNegro, Marak, Lorrelian and 3 others like this.
  11. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    The game can be played entirely with the mouse these days though, or almost. The only keyboard key I use is O for autoexplore and sometimes tab because I'm too lazy to click monsters.
    This is kinda offtopic, but just thought I'd let you know, if you played it a long time ago.
  12. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Also, for reference, the last time I played Dungeon Crawl, it was still called Limley's Dungeon Crawl, and the year was 1997. :)
    Oh, and it was first released in 1997.
  13. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Stay away from Dwarf Fortress, your head will EXPLODE!
  14. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    There are actually a lot of games that people tell me are great that I avoid almost entirely due to UI issues. DF wasn't one of them (it was more a time issue) but I'll add it to the list.
  15. Darkmere

    Darkmere Member

    Dwarf Fortress does have a bizarre internal logic to the UI that starts to sink in after a while (in fortress mode anyway. Haven't found motivation to read the 25-page "quick start" for adventure mode. Also, most of the commands you need pop up on the menus as you navigate them. Most.

    The Fun is in the details though. It took me a couple weeks to get a fort that lasted through winter. After that hurdle, now they can almost always last indefinitely.
  16. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Didst thou tryeth Spacechem yet? <_<
  17. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I love Stone Soup. (AKA Crawl)

    I also Love Nethack.

    I Also love TomeNET.

    Of these, Crawl and Nethack are about equal in complexity, and vastly different games. TomeNET is massively more difficult. Mostly because not only do you have to remember what every key on the keyboard does, but you also have to make complex in-game macros to do some things. Yep. You read that right. They ran out of keys and made more commands and all sorts of interactions and flags and all that mess. But that is not even the hard part. The hard part is that TomeNET is multiplayer and although turn-based, turns happen fast. So you need to know all the commands. One typo at a critical moment will kill you.
  18. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I would love to see a dredmor 2 that combines the style/ui of dredmor with traditional roguelike game play.

    1) No more crafting.
    2) Hunger clock
    3) Races!
    4) Identification Game! (See 5 and 6).
    5) Scrolls and Potions with powerful and sometimes dangerous effects!
    6) Cursed Items.
    7) Out of Depth Monsters.
    8) Unique named monsters.
    9) Player Graves and Ghosts.
    10) Diagonal Movement.
    11) Improved AI. Enemies that call for help/cooperate, enemies that shoot arrows (that can be picked up), Wizard enemies that cast a variety of spells/summon more enemies. Enemies that use wand/potions/scrolls/open doors. More varied enemy behavior.
  19. ProtoMan

    ProtoMan Member

    This kills your entire post.
    I went into that list thinking "oh, so he wants DoD to be like every other roguelike..."
    But seriously, would you really want DoD to be NetHack with different sprites? I'm not going to lie, I wouldn't mind one or two of those getting in, but saying that DoD shouldn't have crafting because other roguelikes have no crafting? Are you kidding?
    FaxCelestis likes this.
  20. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Chengband has crafting. Furyband has crafting. Crawl did at one time at least. I have not played the most recent versions though.

    I could go on and on.