Discussion in 'Discussions' started by Warlock, Aug 27, 2012.

  1. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I am Bi-Polar. No book can help. It is a matter of physiology, not knowledge or mindset. Only time and patience has helped. I have gotten accustomed to asking myself regularly if my behavior is appropriate or if I am having another odd mood.

    Mood swings happen to *EVERYONE*. Period. If you think you are normal and do not have them, then you are simply in denial.

    Depression does not always have any discernible cause. But the effect is usually predictable. The cure, likewise is not always possible. And if it is possible, it is not always a good option.

    But let us not bash Essence for trying to help. It may help. It may not. Ultimately there is only one way to know for certain. That said, I rather doubt any book will help myself. When I was younger my family continually told me that "Reading the Bible and Praying" would help any problem. In time I learned that was just a distraction. I no longer have faith, but my family still does. (If any of you believe in that stuff, good for you. But it is not what I believe. I wish you the best nonetheless.)

    Althea, remember that we all hope that you are well and that your depression ceases or at least becomes manageable. You have lots of friends here. :)
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  2. mining

    mining Member

    [statement meant to be ironic that is probably a bad idea ;)]

    On topic: I've lost 15kg in the last 3 months, which did absolute wonders for my self esteem + mental state. On the downside, I now find cold days very cold indeed.
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  3. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    That is, if someone is a Christian. Atheists might not take it kindly to being told to read some religious book and people of other faith very likely won't take it kindly.

    Which is why we are not supposed to discuss religion there, I guess...

    Edit: And woe is my ability to recognise ironic statements.
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  4. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I did not intend to get us onto religion. Please forgive that and move on. Faith is a relative thing. If you have it, then it can be the most potent thing ever, if you lack it, it has no meaning at all. I fit the later. But I have read the book we should not have mentioned cover to cover and can quote large portions of it from memory. I also read the Books of other Faiths. (Several of them at least. But only the English translations thereof.)
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  5. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    Getting off of religion...
    I have nothing against reading books -- I read a lot myself. They can be informative, they can be comforting, they can energize you to take action, etc. So books are fine. I have no problems with books in general. It's the specifics that sometimes irk me.

    There is an industry in this country of self-help books and self-help organizations and so on that are vastly misleading and can create their own problems. The truth is that IF self-help books could do what they claim to do, then there would be no more need for self-help because your problems would all be solved by reading a book. The world would be a perfect place.

    It's been found, though, that people actually get hooked on self-help books and self-help organizations and so on, and it's an industry that is worth millions of dollars. But if they are so helpful, why is it that people end up going from group to group, invest countless dollars at times and never actually get better. The problem is that these groups and books give a VERY temporary boost to self esteem, to feelings of well-being, and so on. But they don't actually fix anything. It's like taking heroin. Your problems all go away and for a few moments in your life you feel good about yourself. And then you wake up and you realize that nothing has changed. So you have to shoot up yet again to renew that same feeling.

    I believe that the vast majority of the people who write these books are well-meaning (well I'd like to think that, I'm not sure if it's true or not). But so many of them, I feel, prevent people from seeking help that has an actual basis in reality.

    /edit I need to add one more thing...
    Some groups, although their 'theories' are taken out of people's asses (12 step programs to give you an example) do have bits and pieces that DO actually help -- and that is mutual support. Support programs HAVE been shown to give a lot of help for certain types of problems, including grief and addiction. But that doesn't mean that the vast majority of those programs aren't B.S. They aren't any more helpful than any other kind of support group where you talk and form trust with your fellow support group members who are going through similar problems, and become invested in helping one another.

    But those are NOT self-help, those are groups where individuals help one another. Take the 'self' out of it, and you have a lot less B.S.
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  6. mining

    mining Member

    12 step programs entertain me, because I underwent a 13 step program that revealed how 13+ steps are required to have a true impact on your life.
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  7. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    The one thing that is important is your belief that something can help you. So yeah.
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  8. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    It's not about reading the book. It's about the information in the book, which is very specific biochemical information that describes why a broad category of depression, bipolar disorder, apathy, and other commonly-thought-of-as-psychological disorders are actually often caused by either a dietary imbalance, the inability of the body to digest certain substances, or the inability of the brain to process certain substances.

    It's not a "self help" book. It's information about a scientifically proven fact of neurochemistry. You really should read it. Like I said, it won't help everyone -- but if you don't know where your depression comes from, it's literally 100% more likely to be helpful than "nothing", which is your other alternative.
  9. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    There are a lot of problems with 12 step programs that aren't isolated to 12-step programs. Part of the problem is that in most cases, there are either no records or faulty/misleading records, and in some cases even records that have been tampered with as to their success and failure rates as well as recidivism rates. Recidivism is a big problem, and what some of these organizations will say is that if someone fails at the program it is that person's failure, and not a failure of the program itself. But their whole reason for being is that people can get sober but cannot actually maintain sobriety. Alcoholics and drug addicts do frequently get sober all on their own. The whole point of 12 step programs is to keep them sober, and blaming the addict is avoiding their whole reason for existence. They may as well simply claim a 100% success rate and not keep any records.

    All that said, if you are talking about clinical depression, then talk alone is probably not enough. Yes, a good diet and exercise can help,. but is generally not enough. Plus any decent psychiatrist will tell you to eat better and exercise. But it's not enough for a lot of different reasons (one of which is that people who are deep into depression tend not to become easily motivated to make changes, and sometimes the necessary changes are too drastic for people to undertake all on their own. In other words, if you are sick, part of that sickness is the unwillingness to take care of yourself. That means that a book may actually not help one single iota. I can tell you from my own experience, that this is the case. For me, it actually took a friend banging on my door incessantly until I had no choice but to answer it. And he got me to go for help. And I HAD tried to go for help all on my own at one point. But it didn't take. I knew I was suffering, but I couldn't fix it myself. I read a whole lot about depression. But that was not enough to fix it. Alcholics may know exactly what the alcohol is doing to them. They may even read books about it to gain great understanding. But that's not the same as actually quitting drinking, and staying sober for the rest of your life.

    It would be like reading a book about brain surgery to help you remove your own tumor. You may actually understand the book as well as any med student, but that doesn't mean that the odds favor a successful operation.
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  10. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Fortunately, I know from my own experience that this is not the case, because I've used this book myself. The solutions it offers are customized based on your symptoms and involve dropping no more than $20 at your local compounding pharmacy and/or vitamin shoppe. It's literally pill popping, but the pills are things like amino acids that your brain is having trouble making and that have no nasty side effects instead of pills that require a doctor's signature and turn your kidneys into green gelatin.
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  11. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Not to get on religion again, but the word I need for this is Faith. It is not the religious type though. It is merely a believe in something.

    If like myself, you lack faith that a book or the information in it can help you, you are not capable of being helped by it unless what you needed was someone to smack the side of your head with the book.

    I am cynical and skeptical. So information has to be pretty well sorted and thought out for me to bother to read it, and even more for me to have even the tiniest bit of Faith in it.

    I acknowledge that there is always the chance that I am wrong, but my opinion is that Bi-polar disorder is a physiological disorder first, which manifests in psychological symptoms secondarily. The method used varies between people, and in truth is ill defined by medicine at current. I have spoken to a number of Neurologists, and they all agree on two things: Bi-Polar disorder is a bitch to diagnose. And Bi-Polar disorder has multiple methods of cause and effect.

    That said, one cause may well be foods and other intakes required by the body. But I would think that if I were capable of behaving more normally if I eat a specific diet that I would have noticed by now what foods are safe. Again I must point out that some foods and drinks *DO* make me irritable, depressed, and some even make me Manic. But I just avoid those foods as much as possible.

    Truth be told, the political system in this nation is finally getting sympathetic to what I am about to say. (Sorry Daynab. I know you do not want this discussed in length, so please leave this alone everyone. Otherwise this post will be nuked from orbit, and the thread endangered.)

    The only substance I ever found that functions as a regulator in that it keeps myself from extremes of mania and depression is cannabis. No, not smoked. That has too much of an effect. But a tiny, non-noticeable and certainly not "Psychoactive" amount eaten once or twice daily all but eliminates my mood swings without the dangerous piano playing as depicted in the film "Reefer Madness".

    One day it may be possible for legitimate science to determine a method of action and removing the psychoactive parts while leaving the parts that help people like me. For now, it is not even safe to discuss this here due to paranoia.

    So let us move on.

    I think there is some basis for hope from books as well as support from peers. At least as much as can be expected from largely overworked Doctors who have their hands tied by insurance and (In the USA at least) the FDA.

    If a book told me that I can fly, I would not test this by hopping off a tall building. I would try hopping a step down and see if I levitate. Likewise the few books I read that would fall into the category of "Self-Help" basically said that if I did not start with the tall building, than I could expect nothing because I was not believing it and thus it could not work for me until that changed.
    *Edit* Ninja'ed by Essence. 18 minutes ago...
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  12. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    You'd think so, but food science is almost impossible for rigorously-trained scientists, much less laymen. The problem with food is that you can't change only one variable at a time. When you don't eat one thing, you're inherently eating more of something else. You can't reduce calories without reducing fat/carbs/proteins, and it's remarkably hard to reduce all of those things in equal numbers. It's really quite difficult to tell, when you go on a low-carb diet, for example, whether or not the benefits you're seeing are due to a reduction in processed flour and sugar, due to a reduction in fructose, due to a reduction in overall calories consumed, or actually due to a change in the percentage of carbs to fats/proteins.

    In the case of brain chemistry in particular, people are wired to think of themselves as 'normal' all the time, even when their brain is malfunctioning, so it's really really hard to know if something as simple as adding 5HTP supplements to your diet will make you feel better because it's actually literally hard to notice that you feel better except by paying active attention.
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  13. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I am a Diabetic too, so I carefully monitor my intake of carbohydrates and due to my reclusion I eat very similar foods regularly. (Rice and Lentils are easily half my food intake.)

    The biggest problem this poses is that my Liver has to convert this into whatever it lacks. My Doctor helps out by seasonal blood testing to determine what if anything I lack or have an excess of.

    While on the topic of diet effecting hormones that regulate mod, I should point out that most plastics cause an increase in Estrogen levels in *EVERYONE* that comes into contact with them. It can be trivial, or more pronounced depending on how much contact you have and what types of plastics you touch or live around. If you drink from plastic bottles, you have more exposure to this whatever that increases Estrogen levels. Likewise if your clothing is polywhatever instead of Cotton or Wool, then you will also have more effect.

    I also have measurable hypothyroidism and have to take a synthetic thyroid supplement for this. This can possibly be fixed by diet, but I cannot be sure. What I do know is that this means I have to avoid Iodine. So regular iodized table salt is out for me. As such I use Soy Sauce. (It is made with Sea Salt and no measurable amount of Iodine.)

    My Doctor would probably say the one thing I have *WAY* too much of is Caffeine. I do not believe there is such a thing as too much though. :D

    Between Tea and Coffee/Espresso I probably have the same Caffeine intake as the average ten Coffee drinkers. I make my tea and add three teaspoonfuls of Instant Coffee to it, then milk to get it to a temperature I can drink rather than sip. (Most instant Coffee is made from Robusta Coffee. Mine is made from Arabica. It has less Caffeine, but does not taste like how I imagine Diggle Daggle piss would taste.)
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  14. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    My problems are beyond those you listed, by the way.

    Unless the book has magical transformative powers, it's not going to fix me.
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  15. mining

    mining Member

    Well. That clarifies things a little. Also makes me do sadface, so:

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  16. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member


    I have been looking for a use for that. I hope you are thick skinned enough to know I mean no offense. Get well soon!
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  17. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Althea, let me be very serious for a moment. You are quite literally telling me that the effort of going online and checking a book out from your local library -- it's probably available in digital format by now, but if it's not, you might have to drive to the library and pick it up with your hands -- you're telling me that that is too much effort to out in to try something that might help?

    Even if it's only a 1% chance that it'll work, the simple fact that READING is 'too hard' for you right now is an absolute mandate that you should be trying anything, even the longshots, to try and repair yourself.

    OK, I'm done lecturing. Either way, I'm praying for you and I hope you don't take this as me being an ass -- I just like your style and I heard you call yourself 'depressed'. Ive been 'depressed' -- so much so that my wife almost left me -- and this book helped me u derstand what was happpening inside my head and how to feel better. I want that for you, Althea. That's all.
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  18. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    My problems are rooted more in the physical than the mental. The condition I may have (I haven't yet been diagnosed formally, largely because the NHS is a bit shit) has recently been removed from the APA Mental Health manual, actually.

    A book cannot change my situation. It might make me feel better about myself, more sure of what and where I am, but it physically cannot change a thing.
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  19. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    When you say physical, do you mean something like actual head trauma, Or do you mean physical like your neurons don't fire correctly?
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  20. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    Physical in that brain and body don't align.
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