Early Access; An Excuse?

Discussion in 'Clockwork Empires General' started by Fruit, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. Fruit

    Fruit Member

    Well said!
    Ghostwoods likes this.
  2. satoru

    satoru Member

    Why does every idiotic rant about Early Access always 'start' with that Jim video.

    It's like you can't form your own ideas and are forced to piggy back off the infernal rantings of others

    1) Your GalCiv3 reference is simply pure tripe. The game contains all future DLC and Stardock's history with GalCiv2 and their own plans means you get quite a bit of value out of that

    You also conveniently neglect to mention that the beta for GalCiv3 starts soon which will bring the price down to the discounted $39.99 offered on Stardock previously

    2) The casual use of 'cash grab'. This is literally the mantra of anyone who wants to tromp over Early Access. It assumes all devs are thieves out to steal your money by any means necessary. This is a disgusting insult to those developers who work hard to make games. Skills that could easily be transferred to more stable boring jobs. But they don't. Because by and large they love doing it. It's hard work. With lots of sacrifice. And for that sacrifice, they are rewarded by being called liars and thieves.

    How would YOU like it if someone you never met called you a thief and a liar right out of the gate for no reason. Because that's what you're doing.

    3) How long in Early Access. As any game dev will tell you, making a game takes a LONG time. And you rarely get economies of scale by 'throwing more programmers at the problem'. People seem to have this bizarre misconception that you throw a design document together in a room, and XCOM:Enemy Unknown pops out the other end after a few months.


    It doesn't

    4) Chucklefish have never indicated it was a 'top priority' for the key bindings. Your link has a random vague non-attributed that it was some somewhere on reddit. The subsequent reddit link simply points to the fact that Tiy was working on the UI elements. You need to actually check the links you use for references.

    Not doing what you want right now != skewed priorities

    5) Updates outside of Early Access. Firstly this is done all the time anyway. Second it assumes Early Access devs will simply abandon their projects once released. Again stop assuming all game devs are liars and thieves. And it's also easier to create content once you have A SOLID BASE from which to work with. Where parameters and game concepts are more or less stable. This is different than in Early Access where CORE game concepts are in flux, new mechanics are being added, etc. Saying that updates to Early access are like 'post release patches' is ignorance of the highest order. They aren't remotely the same thing. That's like saying adding chrome rims to car is the same as replacing the diesel engine with an electric powertrain instead.


    Take some of your 'humility' and eat some humble pie instead. Stop assuming all devs are liars and thieves. They're not.
    Last edited: May 5, 2014
    Nettle Soup likes this.
  3. Fruit

    Fruit Member

    So! I hope this has cleared some things out! I'd like to point out that you provided a single (barely relevant) link in your post, most of your opinions were pretty much subjective to your personal opinion and a lot of it was just you being upset because not everyone on the internet agrees with you!

    Thank you for your time and enjoy!

    Disclaimer: If you read anything of this in a cold, cynical voice in your head and therefor interpreted it as negative, that's on you. Please remember that how you choose to interpret posts is your choice. Don't be mad if you do so in a way you experience as negative. Try pretending someone with a calming voice is reading it for you. Maybe some Narrator from Animal Planet or maybe Morgan Freeman? Cheers!
  4. Nettle Soup

    Nettle Soup Member

    I like Early Access, I know what I'm getting in for and it encourages me to submit bugs and actually crit the game, because I know some things might end up being changed still.

    Going back to the previous page, I don't "worship" developers and don't personally know anyone who does, I might look up to them in a cool-internet-guy sort of way but it wouldn't stop me from complaining about the problems with their game. I've whined at the PZ devs more than a few times.

    Depending on the studio behind it, it can work, both PA and Don't Starve would both be very different games- if they even existed at all- without Early Access, and I think you guys would be fine. Just make sure to charge a decent price at the start to put off those who are just buying it for the kicks, you can always lower it later. I think PA was around £30 originally, I saw it on sale this weekend for £6...

    Fruit you're being kinda aggressive there and the note at the bottom doesn't change that.
    Haldurson likes this.
  5. satoru

    satoru Member

    Yes it will


    I like how ONE MONTH is 'quite a while'. Before that they were offering both the $99 and the $40 tier on their website. Soon the $40 tier will be available on Steam. That tier will include beta access that is due to start in May.

    Again stop starting from the assumption that all devs are out to steal from you. That's all anyone ever says. It's entirely circular reasoning. They are thieves, therefore they will not deliver, therefore they are stealing. You assume the conclusion then drive all your reasoning from that.

    Don't want to buy it? then don't.

    Don't want to pre-order? then don't.

    Sorry since when is calling a game a 'cash grab' not an insult? To even SAY that you are assuming the devs are theives and liars. Otherwise you WOULDNT CALL IT A CASH GRAB. That's like calling someone a con artist but then claiming "I didn't call them a thief or a liar". The weasel word you're using is entirely predicated on that assumption.

    This is of course patently false. You can look at several Early Access projects especially those based on simulation systems. They add major simulation or system components as time progresses. Each system adding on top of each other. The 'heavy lifting' is far from over for games. The Galciv3 alpha has very basic rudimentary space combat, exploration and only a single victory condition. As time progresses more systems will be added like planetary invasions, diplomacy, AI improvements, per-race tech trees, etc. Each system building on top of each other. Starbound is still working on non-combat oriented crafting mechanism. Prison Architect is working on specific end-game mechanics.

    The 'heavy lifting' is far from over for such games.

    Do not decry that I made assumptions, and then make them yourself. Unless you have magical access the source code.

    You should really look up your EU laws because 'buggy games' is not a violation of an EU law. If it was I could take IBM and SAP to town for all the nonsense I have to put up with for their entire suite of products on a daily basis. It would only be illegal in the EU if you were deceived into thinking it was something else. Considering every single Early Access page has a gigantic blue banner, others putting gigantic warnings on tehir store page, other games putting multiple warning in-game, that's obviously not happening. Refer more carefully before casually throwing out something is 'illegal'.

    Also where are these 'a lot of projects' that you make this claim for? Even utterly infamous products the Infestation Stories is being updated even as of April 2014. You make entirely sweeping broad claims about Early Access projects yet don't provide any concrete examples of them to indicate there is a gigantic systemic issue. Want to discuss SPECIFIC projects? Sure. But you're making gigantic assumpitons of all Early Access titles. None of which have been borne out on a systemic scale.

    Don't want to be part of Early Access. That's fine. That's your perogative. Wait until release. No one is forcing you into Early Access. No dev is forcing you to buy anything. No one is bunlding Early Access games so you're forced into them.

    But if you're going to be critical of Early Access, try not to start from the assumption that all devs are thieves and liars.
    Last edited: May 6, 2014
  6. xragon

    xragon Member

    For me I only feel burned by one of my early access experiences.

    It is with the game Godus from 22 Cans. Now I'm not really going to comment on the game as such, its in a completely unfinished state and I knew what I was getting in for as far as that part of Early Access is concerned.

    The issue I have is that of communication. 22 Cans has made a terrible effort at communicating what they are doing in regards to this games development. I see communication to be an essential part of the Early Access concept, allowing me some insight into the development process in return for my handing over my hard earned cash early.

    Now, not every tiny details of the developers day needs to be shared but I do expect a basic level of communication. 22 Cans have failed at this horribly by going dark for many months at a time. Its not like even weekly updates are required, I have been totally satisfied by the monthly efforts of both the teams behind Spacebase DF-9 and Prison Architect.

    Actual updates to the games are also not specifically necessary as long as we are provided with some sense of momentum. I am "invested" in 3 larger kickstarter game projects which have only been turning out monthly blog posts. All have been able to provide me so far with a sense that my small contribution has put something in motion.

    In the end, as far as Clockwork Empires is concerned, I feel the team have already nailed this important element even before I have any money invested. The weekly updates both whimsical and technical are exactly what I would expect to see if I had put some money down. Even if the actual game updates during a early access period were more sporadic.
  7. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    Think of it this way -- you preordered a game, and it's taking forever to be released (because Godus is still in early access). That's nothing new -- I've preordered games that NEVER came out or that came out many months after they were originally slated to be released. I've pre-ordered games, and when I finally had the finished product in my hands, I spent 5 minutes with it and then gave up in disgust because it either was terrible or just not what I was hoping for. Actually, the same thing has happened to me when I've NOT preordered the game, but simply bought it after good word-of-mouth and reviews (I don't like everything that happens to be popular or well-reviewed). And none of those problems are isolated to early access games. As a consumer, a demo close to or after release is a much better and safer proposition. Hell, waiting for actual reviews to come in after release is a safer proposition, but still isn't foolproof.

    Some people simply should not buy an early access game, because sometimes getting involved in early access is like watching how sausage is made. Sausage could be your favorite food, but after seeing it, you may not ever want to eat sausage again. But if that doesn't bother you and maybe you want to feel like you are involved in the creation of the game by giving feedback and suggestions, and testing things to destruction (because there's always a strong possibility of destruction, sometimes with no effort whatsoever), then Early Access is for you.
  8. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    Pre-ordering and Early Access are not the same thing.
  9. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    No -- pre-ordering is less stressful to some people, simply because some people should never look at how the sausage is being made. But they are similar enough that I could use it to make a point. I'm just saying that you can have a bad experience, whether you preorder or are in early access, or neither of the above.
  10. Nettle Soup

    Nettle Soup Member

  11. Fruit

    Fruit Member

    It's almost as if you only skimmed through the thread and made all your angry replies based on the title.

    First off, the Founder's Edition is not going down in price. The other edition might. But double the price for an unknown amount of DLC is ridiculous.

    Secondly, my thread argues the possible pit-traps of Early Access, not that it is bad in nature.

    Thirdly, this is the last time I'll reply to you regarding this issue of yours. Thank you for your input but please try to stay relevant to the points made instead of being angry at the title of the thread.
  12. Fruit

    Fruit Member

    He reminds me of that uncle you don't quite know but has all these grand ideas for the future but never follows up on them. You just sit there and agree politely, eagerly anticipating the end of the conversation so you can return to whatever you were doing at the time.

    It's times like these I am happy that Christmas is only once a year.
    Last edited: May 7, 2014
    Nettle Soup likes this.
  13. SangerZonvolt

    SangerZonvolt Member

    To be fair I already sunk some time into godus (enough to justify it´s price) and it has made quite a bit of progress. How good the finished game is stands and falls for me with how well they design the later ages, since all I´ve seen till now are the early ages (bronze age I think?). If they make it so that gameplay really cahnges, or at least feels different, then the game will be good. Not the new hyper game that Peter Molyneux want´s it to be, but still good.
  14. Godus looks like a mobile game to me, too much tapping it doesn't look engaging, where's the gameplay? Of course I haven't spent much time looking at the game since it came out, is there more things to do other than expanding and clicking bubbles?
  15. satoru

    satoru Member

    Any more than getting a Season's Pass for any number of games either.

    And again you can get the 'normal' edition soon, which negates the cost aspect. Don't want it? Don't buy it.

    But don't pretend like there isn't an option.

    Really lets look at some choice quotes from your post

    What you 'argue' are straw man arguments. Things that arent happening, and things that devs don't actually do. Your arguments are circular. They are predicated on dishonesty, then provide examples of dishonesty, then claiming that they are dishonest because of it.

    You also did not address any of my arguments about how you made entirely large sweepign claims about developers and games in Early Access. yet did not provide any sources or references to what games you're referring to in such numbers as they would constitute a problem. Where are these 'alot of games that are abandonded'?

    Don't want to buy Early Access. That's fine. Wait till release.

    But again don't criticize developers on 'theoretical' behavior that you assume is entirely predicated on them trying to rip you off.
  16. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    A gentle, quiet reminder: everybody please play nice here. Regardless of your opinions of Early Access, or what-have-you, let's not have to lock *another* thread on Early Access. Don't make David come in here and, er, spray you all with soypaste or something.

    I actually have a bunch of opinions on EA games, and when it works right and when it doesn't, and most of them probably align with what people would want a developer to think. That said, I'm too busy programming to write about it. :)
    EleSigma and convolutedthinker like this.
  17. xragon

    xragon Member

    I totally understand where you are coming from, and ultimately while I am dissapointed with the game as such, its not really my bone of contention. Early Access as it is sold as an experience is all about, as you say, seeing how the sausage is made. But 22 Cans isn't showing us the sausage making process, and that is the rub.

    To stretch your analogy to breaking point what we are getting is the butcher coming out of his shop, throwing down his latest half made sausage and then running back inside slamming the door. Then refusing to answer why there is so much garlic in this sausage when the advert for this sausage never said anything about garlic.

    Okay, enough of my terrible efforts with analogies... really for me I had come to expect (maybe wrongly) that a developer putting a game on Early Access was making an agreement to a certain amount of communication about what they are doing and the ins and outs of the process. With opportunity for a dialogue, allowing for (and it varies from dev to dev) some amount of public input into the process. This is the difference, for me, between Early Access and a Pre Order.
  18. satoru

    satoru Member

    That needs to be a monster ability in Clockwork Empires

  19. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    Honestly, I don't own Godus, but it's been on my wish list because I did enjoy Populous and even though I read that it wasn't supposed to another Populous game, I thought I might actually enjoy it (plus I did hear good things about it, believe it or not). But it stayed only on my wish list because it didnt' sound like it was ready for prime time (the gist was that it didn't sound too much like an actual game, at least yet).

    I can't predict the future. Maybe Godus will never be released. Maybe it will be released in a half-assed condition. I don't know. And I can understand the frustration of someone who purchased it in early access and doesn't have something which they can enjoy (well, honestly, that's how the majority of alphas are that I've seen, and some betas too -- heck I've purchased a small number of released games that were unplayable). It's a gamble and I understand that. And when that game is either officially released, or officially cancelled, you can come back to the forums and tell us whether you won or lost that bet -- the bet you placed when you decided to purchase the game. If the game ultimately fails (either at release, or because it's cancelled), it won't be because of early access. But if it succeeds, part of that might actually be because of it.
  20. EleSigma

    EleSigma Member

    Speaking of disasters KSP just announced they've partnered with and are going to start using Curse to host their mods. This caused yet another revolt in the community, this time amongst modders who are also testers for KSP. Even a forum mod is coming out against Squad for their decision. Squad and their handling of KSP is a lovely example of why I don't trust early access as much anymore.

    For those that don't know Curse is a 3rd party client that installs and updates mods for you automatically but also has a reputation for being an ad filled client that installs adware and malware on your PC.

    Modder and tester Majiir:
    Forum Moderator FEichinger:
    Former game developer Novasilisko pointing out that arguments against Curse in the KSP forum thread are being deleted:

    The Community Manager restored the deleted posts not long afterwards, claiming he had to have a chat about them.