[Discussion] Let's fix the crafting system!

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Yippers, Aug 6, 2011.

  1. competentfake

    competentfake Member

    My Necrofoot Assassin made it to Floor 9 today, and I have a retrospective on my use of Blacksmithing, and a few more suggestions that might improve it, as well as an improved synergy with Throwing.

    -In my journey to Floor 9, I have made the following things for my character (Unarmed/Vamp/Assassin/Blood/Necro/Artful/Smith)
    -Heroic Bronze Aspis x2 ~ Replaced the first one on floor 6 with an enchanted Tribal Shield, and later on with an enchanted Rune-Crusader's Shield on Floor 8. Replaced the second one on floor 7 with an enchanted Cockroach Pavise, and later on with an Ensigiled Shield on Floor 9.
    -Winged Aluminum Boots ~ Replaced on Floor 6-7 with Sabatons.
    -2x Ring of Iron Thorns ~ These I am still wearing, this is by far the best recipe to be had for an unarmed melee character from Blacksmithing.
    -Pleather Armor -> Plastic Platemail ~ Never wore it, by the time I found enough Plastic to make it , I had already found a Voluminous Robe of the Vizier on Floor 6.
    -Throwing Stars ~ Really the only halfway useful thing you can make with Blacksmithing past Floor 6.

    -I currently am lugging around about 25 Iron Ingots, 17 Steel Ingots and 19 Bronze Ingots. I have found exactly four Chalks. I have vendored every jewel I have found with the exception of the two Pyrite Suns I needed for the rings. I have vendored all the Platinum I have found. I'm currently trying to justify reserving five bag spaces (ingots & anvil/ingot press) for a skill that I doubt I will ever use again. I can't even say that it got me over the mid-game hump, sure the shields were nice, and I got enough Bronze to make em on Floor 2, and the rings are admittedly awesome, but I doubt they gave me more survivability than, say, Astrology or Psionics would have. I will say that having Blacksmithing helped a tiny bit on traps, and made it so I wouldn't have to have more than a couple early deaths before my character got enough absorption to leech more health than he was losing.

    -The only thing I can think of that hasn't been mentioned in this thread is the throwing weapons. Again not seeing the logic: Why are the two best throwing weapons (Nzappa Zap & Throwing Axe) made from Crude Iron Axes and not base materials? Why does Nzappa Zap require lvl 4 to craft, and the Throwing Axe only lvl 1? Why, again, is the Bronze item (Dart) better than the Iron item (Kunai)? Why are the Iron Nzappa and Throwing Axe better than the steel throwing star?

    If you guys make the throwing items better and easier to make with the sort of mats a Blacksmith would have accumulated on his journey, it might make the Throwing skill more viable.
  2. Vykk Draygo

    Vykk Draygo Member

    Throwing axes being better than a throwing star kinda makes sense. They have more mass, whether the star is steel or not.
  3. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    You didn't craft either of these?
    • Embossed Serpentine Platemail (best non-magic-user armor in the game)
    • Emerald Amulet (randomized stats amulet)
    Additionally, did you try crafting duplicates and then Kronging them? As you have a duplicate you're safe from any nasty curses you might get.
  4. 123stw

    123stw Member

    Well he was using my build so I can explain why the serpentine wasn't made.

    It was a hybrid necro/unarmed so he can't afford the -10 magic power. Which also means skipping smith level 5 entirely.

    Granted he has absolutely no idea what he's talking about when he want to replace smith with astrology or psionic.... Astrology is terrible for melee because keeping up Radiance Aura and Celestial Aegis at that range is more trouble than they are worth. Psionic works best with magic power (40+) and conflicts with Necro's below 20 magic power needs. Mixing either of those into the build is like putting on a down jacket on a summer day.
  5. competentfake

    competentfake Member

    I just used two random examples, I don't yet have this game down to a science. :|
  6. 123stw

    123stw Member

    But yes you are right about smith, it only provides 3 things

    Rings: Ring of Iron Thorns
    Armor: Serpentine Armor
    Weapon: Flail of Pleiades/Katana

    Helm/boots are only useful for mid game transition. I have yet to roll an Emerald Amulet worth using, and throwing weapons are terrible.

    Granted those 3 things are good enough to make smith usable, but only if they remain craftable without recipes, or if recipe system is changed so you can at least get them sometime before floor 10.
  7. SumDewd

    SumDewd Member

    Back to crafting system... shouldn't the memorized accidental use of a recipe automatically "learn" that recipe? How about after three successful crafts? five?

    I love the new throwables, but that darn bolas craft (3 softballs, unstacked) is murder without the recipe.

    Also, has anyone found a recipe for the wooden shield? I see the "gemmed shield" recipe that asks for a (strong?) wooden shield, but I've never found it or crafted it.
    Essence likes this.
  8. competentfake

    competentfake Member

    That's another frustrating thing about the system is that sometimes part the base materials are actual cruddy weapons and armor you find lying around, so not only do you have to be lucky enough to find things like ore and chalk, but you also (in some cases), need to find a specific crap item as well. (As mentioned previously, the two best throwing weapons are made from Crude Iron Axes. wtf.)
  9. Sorry to being slightly late... It's coming to me just now that I can talk to developers through forum! :)

    For me, there is particulary 3 items that's wrong with crafting system:

    1. No drop from monsters. It's strange for roguelike, honestly! I used to have half of my equip taken from first 50 orcs or something. Here - it is nothing. Except some necromancy and fungus, corpses are useless. It's quite unusual.

    Well, I don't call for major-mega-super-drop on L1. But some basic crude equipment and some basic elements like pipes or copper _must_ drop on first levels! (And, of course, drops must increase in quality/amount with increasing monster level/hardness). It will fix main issue with this game for me: almost no usefulness for any crafting skills on first levels. Tinkering looks most ridiculous: I had ingredients for my first voltaic trap when (as rogue) I get about two dozens of it from the floor. Not mentioning another hundred of lesser ones.

    2. Very limited usefulness of smithing, if you have something good already. Scrapping all magic abilities from items looks plainly wrong! You mixing two obviously rare and expensive items only to get one basic one?! Impossible! I, personally, think that you must have in result item with, say, average magic potential. For example, 3-star item+1 star must give 2 star - with correspondent random abilities, of course. I think, it's honest, especially given that you lose 2 at least equal items for it. Also, such combining can be nerfed/enhanced with smithing skill. Say, 0.2 of combined power with no level, 0.3 on 1st level, and 1 on fifth? It's only example, maybe 1 is too big, and 0.2 is too small...

    3. It's only me who have problems with recipe switching? It's ok while I have all equip open, but if I have, say, only Ingot Grinder open and use through interface recipes from Distillery, I will achieve nothing - I need to close everything, open Distillery interface, and go from start from it. Isn't it obvious that using correspondent recipe from book, I always must have correct tool open afterwards?

    P.S. I am Russian, so sorry for all (undoubtedly numerous) errors in my grammar.
  10. Derakon

    Derakon Member

    The crafting interface is a known problem, and they'll be looking to redress it when they get the chance, but it's a fair amount of work.

    Tinkering for traps is pretty much not worth the effort. Make bolts and throwing weapons, and pick up your traps off the floor.

    I agree with you that the fact that monsters only ever drop money is weird. I'd be fine with having monsters occasionally drop items in exchange for there being fewer items on the floor. Same total amount of stuff, but more of it is "earned". That would however make some of the more marginal level-1 builds (that depend on lucky finds showing up before they have to kill too many enemies) less feasible.

    As for smithing, clearly plenty of people think it's good given how often it shows up in suggested builds. Artifacts that you can smith (e.g. Flail of Pleiades) will get random bonuses, though.
  11. Chronoblivion

    Chronoblivion Member

    I think a possible fix is some sort of "reinforcement" system; any weapon or armor could have it's stats buffed by combining it with different ingredients. Not randomly, Krong style, but something like combining any weapon with a few ingots would give it a permanent +1 slashing damage, or using elemental potions to enhance your elemental damage/resists.

    This would fix a couple problems with the crafting skills; you could use your surplus of ingredients to bring your mid-level crafted stuff up to the same level as the high end found stuff, and it would give you a practical use for your inventory-demolishing stockpile of ingredients later in the game. Exact type and quantity of ingredients could easily be balanced to prevent you from having a 30 damage weapon on floor 2, and the method of availability could be limited by crafting level, hidden recipe, or both. Different buffs could be available to the different crafting skills, or, as is the case now, some of them could be available via multiple methods.
  12. Derakon

    Derakon Member

    Now that is interesting. Smiths stick more metal on everything (+absorb / -nimbleness on armor, +damage on weapons); alchemists electroplate (+acid resist) and imbue with potions (+other elemental resists); tinkers slap gears and mechanisms on everything (uhh... +dodge reduce? Something?).

    You should only be able to do this once per item (and not all item slots should be eligible) to avoid excessive twinking, and the results could be determined by your crafting skill.
  13. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

  14. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    QFT. The recipies should either be unavailable until found (in which case they should appear more often or in sets rather than one-offs), OR they should be discoverable through trial-and-error (in which case using a recipe correctly should cause it to appear in your book. ) When I discovered Bolas (as a joke while trying to turn Softballs into Plastic Ore), I was SO HAPPY I went out and empted 127 Softballs out of a vending machine...and then discovered Autofill didn't work. :( :( :(