1.0 "Create Modules" mode for workbench.

Discussion in 'Design Suggestions' started by Puzzlemaker, Nov 1, 2016.

  1. dtolman

    dtolman Member

    Coming from Civ VI, I think the problem here is that 25 years of building games like Civ, Impressions Builders, etc have trained us that you can setup a queue on a single production node (build X, then Y, then Z).

    I'm on my second game of CE (and the first ended 8 game days in), so this is a semi-first-impression:
    -its clear that if you want to produce multiple things, you need to pump out more production modules (with offsetting decoration item).
    -I never considered this a queue, as its a parallel system with priority (aka - if you have 3 workers, they work on the top 3 items).
    -This is not a substitute for queuing as seen in Civ, and other builder games (aka -don't build this until THAT is finished - in sequential order), as that usually doesn't work here unless there is a dependency chain (can't build THIS until THAT is finished).

    Simply put - yes there is priority order within a shop, by module. The UI is clear on this. But its not a substitute for a traditional sequential queue.

    If I was to put on my Sustaining Engineer Hat, if I was tossed this, I'd probably add a checkbox "disable parallel build" (or something to that effect), which would effectively turn the multiple modules into a traditional queue, and be done with it :)
     
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  2. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Hey, while I'm thinking about this, here's an idea that addresses the problem of small standing orders being better than large standing orders but requiring more micromanagement:

    Standing orders do not use the your current stocks to determine when they produce. Instead, they try to produce the anticipated stock and account for any construction on the map and the costs to make exactly one item in some other queue somewhere. Additionally, standing orders start at 0, not 1.

    Say I have a standing order for 5 cots at an advanced workbench, a standing order for 2 stacks of paper at a carpentry workbench, and a building that needs 12 planks. A standing order of 8 planks will produce 8 + 2 * 5 + 5 + 12 = 45 planks, taking into account the fact that as those planks will be used up there will be less than 8 left if it produced anything less than 45.

    This kinda gets the behavior people are craving and reduces micromanagement, but they still have to build extra workbenches.

    Also, if players don't want to maintain a stockpile but just have the workshop produce the good as needed, they can just set a standing order for 0. Setting a standing order higher than 0 helps add some capacitance that can smooth out shocks, so I imagine people still will.

    As an alternative, the standing desk could also be introduced as a module to workshops, or some similar thing, that "unlocks" this kind of demand tracking, perhaps with a "file paperwork" job. Then you could set a workbench to a wholly new order called "accept orders". This would require a new way to think about job assignments though, with an overseer remembering that they were going to go do a job but didn't have materials, and ordered them.

    EDIT: Typo
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  3. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    The top proposal I don't understand well enough to implement which means nobody's ever going to be able to use it, frankly. I wanted the standing desk to *somehow* be useful for advanced module ordering-about at some point, but nothing ever came of it. Hmm.
     
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  4. Exile

    Exile Member

    Mein Herr Vining
    I was not aware of that as well.

    I do not mind the extra clicks to help pass the time, which is why most do.

    :"As it is not whether one will win or lose but how you will play the game..

    Doch!
    The finger bone is connected to the carpal bone, so as i am very sure as you very well realise as you always appear to be
    typing a great deal as most serious "computers" tend to do. ,

    A word to the wise.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_tunnel_syndrome
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpal_bones
    .Every One .Please take care.
     
  5. 3. I never though of that as a proper queue system. Simply because it doesn't really act as queue system: each workbench can take one order, but multiple workbeches can process orders simultaneously. And that is something that a queue can't do. This might not a bad thing from a management prospective: the cost, in terms of resources and SPACE, of more modules is compensated by the possibility to queue things that can be done simultaneosly. Frankly speaking, with the job system the game has, it's a much better system than a single-job queue: you can add workres do more stuff, if the workshop can process only one job at a time, labourers are useless. And if you think they could help by reducing the processing time of the job, you really haven't play the game much: the rate determining step of a "crafting" job is resouce gathering. In games like this one, this is how things work.
    I always forgot to mention this: would you please think about making the lamp-posts a boxed module? My games always get a major slow down when I want to build those, because the resource gathering is really slow... try to build 5-10 of those around your colony... it takes forever... I started employing a lot of criminals mainly because of that, in the pre-release build.

    The idea is good, but on the practical side it doesn't really work that well... As other have mentioned the issue before me, the game penalize workshops with a lot of modules: each module is -1 quality, so to have a good quality building with "n" modules you must have "6+n" decor. Keep in mind that outside decor and carpets requires tech. And techs requires time, mostly becuase the upgrading modules require an established metalworks and techs. And metalworks is actually a late game thing right now... The carpentry suffers a lot this problem becuase it can produce a wide variety of modules that are always required: beds, chairs, basic decor, ad so on. Most of the modules present in the game are produced in the carpentry.
    I never put more than one workbench in a carpentry. I do, however, usually put at least 2 basic benches for the quick production of planks, paper, and shorings. This is because I need a lot of planks and I need them fast, and the "sawmill" is a late game module...
    Keep in mind that the decor modules occupy space. A lot of space. And you don't really have a lot of variety in decor modules to put a carpentry, since carpets are midgame, late-midgame stuff. And there is a lack of quality-dense modules: paintings are rare and expensive, so they should be considered as a big bonus. Carpets require a lot of brick'abrack since they are walkable, but are locked by reaserch (and this is fine, don't take me wrong: they actually occupy space only in respect of modules, and it's a big bonus). All the other modules are only +1. So if you want to make a queue, you need a lot of modules, modules need to countered by decor, decor occupies space, you must make a big workshop, you need more resources and more land, you need to flatten a lot of terrain, yuo need more manpower, you need different modules for houses, you need a queue (it doesn't really spyral like this, but usually the carpentry gets stuffed with things pretty easily).

    On top of that planning a building is not that simple, since you first have to design the base and then place the modules. Ops, you wanted to put three saws in a row, but you miscalculated the floor by one? You have to redo everything! You planned a complicated shape for a metalworks with separate rooms and such, but you misclicked somewhere while blueprintig? Or maybe you miscalculated something? Or you don't know how big those modules are? You have to redo everything! (I like to make intersting shapes for the buldings, but the system simply preferes rectangular boxes)

    The fact that you have to plan a building with in mind shapes and volume of the modules, without the possibility to test a configuration while building.

    [right now I have lessons, so I can't finish the post. If I have time this afternoon I'll finish it/post a continuation down in anothe post, since edits don't seem to give alerts aroud]

    [and this post is probably full of errors -.-']
     
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  6. Exile

    Exile Member

    Not too bad only a dozen or so and some are just a problem with the spell checker underlining it in red. it
    Set the Edit and the click on an open area,which will open the spelling menu click on a word with a red line under it ,
    thiss will open a menu with a list of word select the one you would consider to be the closed it,
    after the red lines are all gone or most of them,type after The edit: spelling checked..
    then save changes.
     
  7. Wolg

    Wolg Member

    ...FWIW I only use standing orders for all production. :oops: Standing orders for just 1 of modules, scaling up as the product becomes more basic.
     
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  8. ircubic

    ircubic Member

    Responding to this a bit late, I generally have at most 1 of each kind of work bench and two carpentry benches, because if I add more, it gets harder and harder to make up for in Quality, and Despair sets in.

    I do vaguely understand that it's supposed to be a queuing system, but one that forces me to make a trade-off between Convenience and Despair, so the cost of adding an extra work station feels very heavy for me. Basically, each extra work bench exacts a hidden cost of at least one extra bricabrac (which aren't exactly cheap) if I want to keep my colony from being a constant madness-fest.
     
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  9. Trygve

    Trygve Member

    In my experience, bric-a-brac gets increasingly easier to manufacture once you have a mine and a metalworks in place. It's much more time efficient to make bric-a-brac from surplus iron or copper ingots, or even gold. Gold generally isn't of much use, aside from trading, and if I get a gold mine up, I'll eventually use most of the gold for bric-a-brac, or to trade paintings.

    In the early part of the game, when you're still making bric-a-brac from planks, you'll have to balance the need of bric-a-brac production, with everything else you plan to make from wood.
     
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  10. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    I honestly don't even bother with bric-a-brac until I get a ceramics workshop going, then I just use glass, because the surplus of sand you get from high-staffed level two mine is more than enough.
     
  11. Naffarin

    Naffarin Bureaucrat-Inspector Exemplar of The Empire

    Well i have a very different opinion that this would be a mess. I pondered about it now for a while, but for me it is only a link from a build designation (actually the needed resources) to the work building(s) that are needed for the ingredients. If a build designation is removed, the work buildings are informed that the requested resources no longer are needed...if they have been partially built it is just too late, but this would be understandable for a player in my opinion. If you dismantle a resource producing module it sends a dismantle message and those build designations who have a link to the resource producing module/owning workshop remove the link and recreate a "Need resource" message.
    From what i see in the lua code you already have a message driven system and this makes managing such things far less complicated in my opinion.
     
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  12. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Iron and copper work okay, but the most efficient way to get bric-a-brac is probably glass, with stone as the runner up.
     
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  13. Honestly, the reason is that it just doesn't make sense. I build a workshop, I expect to build enough workbenches for the staff to work on. That's it. If I have a workshop with 3 staff but want to build 6 different things (as pointed out, a common occurance) it's not intuitive at all that I have to build another 3 workbenches, so 3 perfectly usable benches stand perpetually idle. I don't think you *can* easily persuade most people to be okay that workbenches flip back and forth between being actual, usable in-world things and purely UI for queue slots.
     
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  14. Orzelek

    Orzelek Member

    From my point of few there are two problems here:
    1. You have in game mechanics that detract from making big workshops (quality will be abysmall if you put north of 10 workbenches in workshop)
    2. There are quite a lot of modules which means that amount of decor benches to have standing orders for all of them is simply prohibitive.
    It would work if we could set a workbench into standing order saying: produce required modules as needed. It would mean that with 1-2 workbenches it would be possible to reduce the micromanagement of module production while not exploding your workshop size.
     
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  15. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    For some reason your post got caught in our automated spam filter, apologies! Any posts from now should be fine, I think.
     
  16. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    "Look, I don't want any toast, and he doesn't want any toast. In fact, no one around here wants any toast. Not now, not ever. No toast. Or muffins. Or muffins. We don't like muffins around here. We want no muffins, no toast, no teacakes, no buns, baps, baguettes or bagels, no croissants, no crumpets, no pancakes, no potato cakes and no hot-cross buns and definitely no smegging flapjacks."

    "Aah, so you're a waffle man."
     
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  17. Exile

    Exile Member

    It may happen to you,that is why I am an Exile.

    Edit: redundant character.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2016
  18. Exile

    Exile Member

    Actually,He would probably prefer waffles.being a male Homo Sapiens..
    No one has an appetite for nothings ,which BTW is a vernacular for Eclairs,Doch they may have an appetite fort
    real pâtissier, such a: croquembouch,quiche flan,a cookie or even a humble (speaking English one should always aspirate) pizza,provided with all having plenty of extra gluten.

    Cool Drool.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croquembouche

    Splendid progression toward Piltdown speciation.

    In any event ,abandoning all hopes of pedantic grammar standard, henceforth,evermore.

    The raven is diseased.
     
  19. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    To cap this thread: we're still thinking our way through this and will keep everybody posted.
     
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  20. Jonta

    Jonta Member

    Would by very nice with a list of "unknown" hotk like this one, either in the Wiki or just pinned here in the forum.