Come Bitch About Skills! [Skills Rebalance Brainstorming]

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I think that you should just decide on your own what to include. You have not left us wanting for anything so far. Clearly you make good choices.

    That said, I agree with Kazeto about unhiding some of the recipes. Keeping things hidden is a waste. If there were no hidden recipes, there would be no need for bookshelves.
  2. mining

    mining Member

    Quoted because it summarises my views better than my paragraph or two did.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  3. Onamar

    Onamar Member

    Seconding both of these.

    Astrology could use some buffs or maybe a new skill, I've always felt like it was really weak besides Syzygy, and you can get that buff from a Gargle Blaster anyways.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  4. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Not at current. The Syzgy you get from a PGGB is "Lesser Syzgy".
    Essence likes this.
  5. Gabriel P

    Gabriel P Member

    Honestly I've always felt that Syzygy was the worst of the three Astrology buffs, it was great in a Gargle Blaster because it gave non-spellcasters a use for their mana but when you're actually playing a mage... meh. But the first level aura is amazing, since it procs free Blinding Flash spam and gives you bonuses that basically trivialize the big hurdle of Floor 2. Celestial Aegis is also really great, good defensive buffs are rare and valuable and it's one of the best.

    The astrology rune trap is... not very great, though. I'll occasionally lay them down but it's pretty rare that they accomplish anything useful, I'd rather save my mana. The Stars Aligned is pretty sweet, and Blinding Flash spam can be a decent way to buy yourself some breathing room by paralyzing everything.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  6. Megaron

    Megaron Member

    Personally, I think all Astrology needs is a buff to Radiant Aura (as useful as it is early on, it just... is really annoying to keep up), and a buff to Celestial Aegis, because it is shite.
    OmniaNigrum and Lorrelian like this.
  7. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  8. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    Fungal Arts; last two skills. What the hell.

    I'm currently using a melee character who uses Fungal Arts instead of a full crafting tree for their support functionality. It requires more inventory space than I actually expected. Inventory space is moot with upcoming pocket dimension. Don't worry.

    To point: The Mini Toxic Spore Cloud does pathetic damage, doesn't seem to cause any useful statuses, rarely procs in relation to my other procs, and overall I just don't care about its existence. I only took the level because I wanted the increased fungling.

    Worse yet is the skill after it, the capstone of the skill tree. I will never take this skill level again as is. To my knowledge, it doesn't give you increased fungus spawns like the ENTIRE rest of the tree. Worse, what it does give you is pretty crap. Confusion isn't particularly valuable as far as debuffs go, at least it doesn't seem to work as advertised to me. More investigation may be required. . . Anyway, the actual Mushroom beast spawned is laughably weak. I mean, sure, it's really really ridiculously powerful for something you can have before leaving the first floor, but it is totally underwhelming for a capstone skill.


    I find Werediggle works very well with a proc based build, since most procs seem to not care about whether you're polymorphed or not, but that's my two cents.


    Also, something seriously needs to be done about the end of the Demonlogy skill tree.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  9. Konork

    Konork Member

    Actually, the capstone DOES do that. I'm looking at the XML right now. It has two 5% kill triggers to directly cast the spells that the other shroom spawning procs indirectly cast.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  10. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Which is sadly borked -- you can't have two kill triggers in the same skill level, so only the first one counts.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  11. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    I'd seen those but wasn't sure what they were doing.

    Regardless, the capstone is still crap.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  12. Cullen

    Cullen Member

    Toxic Spore Cloud(when summon slime and mushroom) Scales to savvy. mini too(Battle Mycology). So player gain benefit from Mage and Rogue(both Increase savvy and Fungal Arts is Rogue)

    Mushroom Hp scales to Savvy (i didn't test it. but i think summon with 500 hp, and damage it with 499 true damage and heal it with savvy is possible)


    Heavy armor Reduce more Nimbleness. And if Possible. Master of Arms Reduce penalty. (Add Debuff(maybe lose edr and nimbleness per attack and attacked? i don't think it's possible to dubuff when just equip) in all heavy armor and Master of Arms Remove it? i dunno how exactly it should)


    Assassination Damage scales to critical. or lose all melee power(maybe should buff?) and Damage scales to Critical Chance when critical(1.0? 1.5? 2.0?)

    Make Dagger mastery if possible. Increase Critical Chance and Sneakiness. and i think it should damage scales to critical chance. or Nimbleness

    Or make many dagger item and Increase critical chance

    Burglary too much useful. gives 6 Nimbleness and 3 trap. and lucky pick to Additional Exp. Lock up. Invisible and Teleports? It seems overpower.


    I think Piracy is overpower. Early game : break it with 75% Counter. Mid game : 75% Counter still breaking it. and if you have high dodge, Mists make you invincible. late game : Still you are Invincible in melee. and the Black Spot is useful when killing boss/dredmor.


    Crossbow Blast damage scales to melee power. why?

    Damage should scales to EDR when Critical. not melee power.


    I think Blood Mage need Blood to Mana. lose xx% hp and Gain xx% mana. and some debuff?


    Big Game Hunter : Why hunter use taunt? and icons using crossbow.


    Master of arms Gives less block Chance and shield gives more Block Chance. and make more something scales to Block Chance. like shield bash. charge?

    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  13. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Not possible right now. Though the concept is worth exploring.

    I kind of agree with that.

    Not possible. It can give stats/procs, but it won't be affected by your armour's "class".

    Assassination Damage scales to critical. or lose all melee power(maybe should buff?) and Damage scales to Critical Chance when critical(1.0? 1.5? 2.0?)

    It's planned for the expansion, and this is supposed to be a rebalance and not expansion.

    The same there, it's supposed to be a rebalance so no new items and no new skills.

    What exactly do you propose to do about it, then?

    Pester Nicholas about that - it would require changing a core mechanic of the game, which is far above what a skill rebalance can do.

    I think it would make it overpowered. You can already prepare phylacteries for yourself, and they do give you some mana.

    Hunter uses a lure, which is pretty much what hunters do. And what the heck is "and icons using crossbow" supposed to mean?

    I kind of agree with that.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  14. Cullen

    Cullen Member

    Sorry for ninja(?)

    (Add Debuff(maybe lose edr and nimbleness per attack and attacked? i don't think it's possible to dubuff when just equip) in all heavy armor and Master of Arms Remove it? i dunno how exactly it should)

    Add Debuff on the all heavy armor. and suit up block(or remove) the Debuff. or Heavy armor's Debuff is low chance to trigger and master of arms remove it. what do you think? i think it's possible

    Edit : Let's say Heavy Armor Reduce 5 nimble and Edr and stacked by per hit or attack or Something eles. If you have this buff and if master of arms(both of course) Increase 2 Edr and NImble. this is just example but i thnk it's really possible

    Make a Buff to Reduce all melee power and Damage with Edr Crossbow shot. and if you have buff. Crossbow shot Critical deal Additional damage. i think it's possible(Edit : maybe require requirebuffontrigger on trigger)

    Teleport cooldown to 100(more or less). Summon a Point and Teleport to target point. it will very useful for shop stealing and normally cooldown will make it impossible to overuse (it will very looks like Thief. maybe gasbomb to confuse or sleep when use?)

    Trophy Collector and Most Dangerous Game has Crossbow icon but there's no Crossbow Stuff. Also no need to use Hounds at close combat(normally used by Ranger or Archer for chase for long range and impossible to finish(wall or trees or hide into somewhere so need hounds) or pull dead target Edit : or distract your target so you can Attack them well. no need for butcher. also skill proc more like.. what was that.. )

    Remove other skill. seriously why blood mage don't use blood magic? Edit : it should more risky. like blood magic. now it just mana pumper. and i think blood mage should collect corpse for test or.. something

    Editing.. i think done.. ah. need moree edit
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  15. Kalos

    Kalos Member

    Actually it's quite easy to do, because you can use negative scaling.
    For exemple,
    <effect type="damage" righteous="100" righteousF="-1" primaryScale="5" />
    does exactly what you expect.
    The more savvy you have, the less damage you does.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  16. Cullen

    Cullen Member

    <effect type="heal" amount="-499" />
    <effect type="heal" amount="1" amountF="1"/>
    this is doesn't work?
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  17. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    It is possible, if you know what you are doing (and "knowing what you are doing" means that you have to be on a level where you know it's possible, and not merely think it is), and if you are willing to place something that wouldn't look good, wouldn't be compatible with mods, and would take a lot of time, into the game.

    Just take my word when I say it's not worth the effort now. Not with the hooks we have at the moment and with the way Master of Arms works.

    You'd have to place a bunch of dummy buffs on Master of Arms that triggered when you got hit and additional triggers on every affected armour that triggered one of the few debuffs, depending on which buffs are active. It is possible, but the effort required and the sheer shoddiness of this solution make it equivalent to being impossible. And that's without mentioning the fact that armour added by mods wouldn't work the same way then, not without the mods' creators changing their stuff.

    Not possible. You'd have to either place the trigger on every possible skill tree (and then what?) or on every possible item (erm, good luck...). Besides, with something like that, a lot of zany things would start occurring.

    Said teleport is a last-tier ability, and it's balanced compared to other teleporting skills if you look at it tier-wise. So, anything more exact? Because the only thing you really described there is making the capstone skill weaker, and when you propose changing the entire skill tree, that's kind of insufficient.

    "Big Game Hunting" is taking part in a game-like hunt with ranged weaponry involved. There are no crossbow buffs for the sake of balance, but thematically, it is related to crossbows as they are the only ranged weapons in the game that are "shot", so I don't think it would be wise to change the icons over something like that.

    Erm, why should they remove that other skill? It's risky enough, since it gives you a healing item in exchange for losing some maximum health until you use it, and since that item is explicitly made with your character's blood, it does match the theme.

    That is, unless we get into the realm of resistances and weaknesses, but you are right, even if not the best, it certainly is a solution.

    Though when I was replying, I was thinking about healing effect not being scalable with savvy (but yeah, I should've clarified).
    OmniNegro likes this.
  18. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    I was thinking - wouldn't it be nice if pet summons became stronger throughout the game?

    Then I thought - couldn't we give them a buff spell, which scales off a hero attribute? Something like +2 to all attributes, scaled to Stubbornness? Buff just appears on summons when summoned, and lasts forever? I suppose it could be dispelled, but just re-casting the summon would probably fix that.

    Just a thought I had.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  19. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    Mr_strange: what's the hook you use to buff the critter, though? That's really the issue. . . Perhaps 1-turn delayed buff cast off of the same ability which hits one of the largest templates available, which targets the specific summon. . .
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  20. Cullen

    Cullen Member

    I know what i doing correctly : I don't do anything with this mod except suggesting. also there's not much heavy armor in this game.

    Why add bunch of dummy buffs? just Suit up to block it
    or Walk it off to remove 1~3 stack.
    or make heavy armor mastery remove 1 stack per hit and attacked. it shouldn't have any name in spellDB so don't show up anything.
    Edit : Requirebuffontrigger can be use in item's trigger(uh..)? if so, make master of arms buff. if don't have this buff armor will trigger -5 penalty. if has this will trigger -2 penalty.

    Every skill tree? why not just crossbow? just make a buff. shot target -> check buff from hero -> if hero has buff damage target.(or if hero have buff. buff all mobs in area named as targeting(like mutant mod? if i'm recalling it correctly. when use buff it try to use something for every turn. and if has buff trigger it. just bigger template(or only front?) buff mobs every turn and if target has buff trigger damage. self-confusing) -> if target has targeting, trigger damage. and damage scales as Edr of course. i think critical nothing difference from shot except it's trigger when critical. Edit : ah problem is it will trigger even Melee attack. and hm.. i think there's possible way to only effect crossbow critical shot.. maybe.. buff target when crossbow shot and if target has buff Critical shot detonate it! crossbow shot buff should has 1 turn and after 1turn remove it self so player cannot hit it with Melee Attack. but this need to trigger buff before critical hit. is this possible? Edit : if hero get detonate critical shot at difference level from buff? it would slow it?, or if after="1"?(or trigger and amont?) or detonate code it(detonate) in after code buff?)

    I didn't said about all crossbow but every crossbow has difference Scale will be cool. sneaky crossbow. farseer crossbow. Assassins crossbow, ranger's crossbow(counter-attack?) Thief crossbow(nimbleness)

    It will good capstone. teleport cannot teleport when can't see target direction right? this will jump to closed door, right front of stair, and a bigger sleep bomb(or invisible and Reduce Edr bomb). and cannot overuse for with 24 turn cooldown.. but it still overpower so i can't say it's good idea

    Never mind. i can recall it looks Monster hunter. Carve, Taunt in trap(= lure) Attack corpse after kill, and send 4 kittens for hunt dragon

    I think Blood Magic is power of pure magic. Not soul drinker(first skill drain soul from fallen enemy, second skill drain vital energy(?), third skill steal soul, forth skill put blood and soul so make a potion(why it doesn't make bleeding?)(it looks Anpanman though) fifth skill collect soul.. why all soul and nothing use blood except haematic? also it's not really use blood. just pluck a vessel) but i think this is need too much change in core game so i can't what it should.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.