Come Bitch About Skills! [Skills Rebalance Brainstorming]

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    pirates should start with pirate training breeches.
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  2. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I, on the other hand, think that pirates should start with a piratey hat (that would give a small bonus to caddishness). Anything else in their loadout is optional.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  3. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks


    1. Starting skill, no recipe given.
    2. Potion of Lively Regeneration
    3. Potion of Midas
    4. Potion of Replenishment
    5. Steeled Robe
    6. Magic Sandals
    Aegho and OmniNegro like this.
  4. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Wait, stop. This will make you get randomly spammed by the debuff when a diggle dies to say, an acid bolt trap. On the other end of the dungeon. That you can't disarm.

    You will not be able to fix vegan in a sensible way with a mod. I think it'll be better to pester gaslamp about it honestly.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  5. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I guess you missed this post.

  6. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    They do not trigger targetKillEffectBuffs so kills by them will not debuff the player anyway.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  7. Richbellemare

    Richbellemare Member

    The first skill in Warlock and the first skill in Viking Wizardry combine to be very broken.
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  8. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    ...for like the first two floors.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  9. Syphonix

    Syphonix Member

    Blood Magic. Change the tiers that grant mana and buffs on killing foes to spells that cause bleeding damage and return mana or buffs to the caster. These spells should cost health instead of mana.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  10. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Really dislike the idea of making Vegan trigger anytime an animal dies. The skill does have some pretty big stat boosts, but it comes with all sorts of drawbacks...
    • drone jam,
    • reduced food options,
    • it's really easy to goof up and attack an animal in the middle of a zoo,
    • if you don't kill the animals you only get about 70% of the XP a meat-eating character does per floor (maybe less now that there's so many more diggles everywhere).

    Currently the XP issue isn't a big deal. It slows you down on floor 1, but by floor 2 most Vegans will be able to kill animals in one way or another, and then they catch up. That's for the best, really, because while +18 primary stats, +24 hp, 5 righteous damage and a de-curse is good, it's not better than 40% more XP.

    The curse removal power has a long cooldown, so if you get rid of the ability to kill animals without getting cursed, it will lead to either a major reduction in XP earning for Vegans, or a lot of spacebar-spam.

    So if you keep them from killing animals, you'll have to seriously boost the skill in some other way to compensate. If you think the skill is too good now, how much more broken will it have to be when it's compensating for another 20% to 40% xp reduction? That way madness lies.

    If you think the stats are too much, just reduce the stats.
    Essence, OmniNegro and Mr_Strange like this.
  11. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    Weapon skills (and Unarmed) - These are already pretty reasonable, in my opinion. I'd like to see their damage increased a bit at high levels - something that gives extra :melee_power:, maybe a 30% bonus at max level? That would mean weapon skills are always increasing your damage - instead of adding a few static damage bonuses. The static bonuses are awesome at low levels - but we need some scaling damage for the high end, to make weapon skills relevant.

    Crossbows - Honestly the only thing we need to make this tree awesome is significantly increased bolt recovery. Give me 75% bolt recovery at level 5, and this would be a must-take skill for crossbow users. Level 4 fleshbore proc is a bit lackluster as well.

    Throwing - This tree is pretty good already. A bit more ammo recovery would help, for sure, and a bunch more softballs at each level would be a nice bonus. I'd also like to see some extra damage which scales - just like my weapon skill suggestion. Most of all, I'd like to see this tree changed to be a warrior-class tree!

    Dual Wielding - give a :edr: penalty at level 1, and reduce it on each level - to encourage folks to take multiple levels of the skill.

    Shield Bearer - I'd LOVE to see the stat bonuses here apply only when you are holding a shield. Tortoise Maneuver should last for a few more hits, in my opinion. Capstone skill should generate defensive bash when you block - not when you attack in melee. I'd also like to change all of the :block: bonuses in levels 2 & 4 to exotic resists. Duck & Cover could give 2:resist_piercing: 2:resist_blast: 2:resist_conflagratory:, Tortoise Maneuver could give 2:resist_existential:, 2:resist_hyperborean:, 2:resist_putrefying:, 2:resist_transmutative:, 2:resist_voltaic:. That would make the tree very attractive for tank builds - even if they get plenty of :block: from other sources already.

    Berserker Rage - this tree is pretty perfect already. I'd like to double the exotic resists in level 3, but otherwise leave it alone.

    Artful Dodger - perfect as it is.

    Master of Arms - capstone skill is a bit weak - by the time I get around to it I don't really need any more defensive stats. I also think suit up should last for 5 hits or even 8, instead of just 3.

    Vampirism - lots of interesting ways to improve on this tree. I'd suggest scaling the drain with :sagacity: or :sneakiness:. I also think it needs a bit more non-scaling damage - maybe 3 + 25% of whatever stat. That would make it decent in the early game, which is where vampirism falls apart right now. The first skill shouldn't be enough to carry you through everything - you need level 2 and level 3 to enhance your healing - I'd also love a "charm" skill like animal friend - to create minions!


    In general, my biggest complaint with magic is that the cost for each spell tends to decrease too rapidly. This means that extra :savvy: hardly matters, since 30:savvy: (which you have at character level 8 if you are playing without any warrior skills) already minimizes the cost of pretty much every spell in the game. I'd like to see 100:savvy: be the level where every spell hits minimum cost. In many cases, this means that spell initial costs need to be increased - so that they can scale down further.

    For example, The Stars Aligned (Astrology capstone spell) has a cost of:
    [​IMG]40 (− 0.3 ×[​IMG]) (min [​IMG]6)
    This is a very well-costed and well-scaled spell. The cost when you first earn it is probably ~30 (if you get it around level 12 or so) and you need 112:savvy: to minimize it.

    On the other hand, Celestial Aegis has a coste of:
    [​IMG]26 (− 0.45 ×[​IMG]) (min [​IMG]5)
    When you first earn this spell around level 12, the cost is already just :mana: 13 - and you'll minimize it quickly.

    Other than this broad issue - I like the way most magic schools come together.

    Magic Training - this is a great idea, but it's currently way too weak to be of any real interest. Every level should give 5:savvy: - that would make it very appealing to most cost-conscious wizards! I'd also like to see additional :magic_resist:, some significant :haywire: and maybe some :reflection: added. This is a great place to add another level or two - since useful stat bonuses like these are always in demand.

    Blood Magic - pretty decent as it is. Clearer text explaining what additional levels do after the 1st level would help.

    Ley Lines - this is actually my favorite magic-help school these days. Quick mana regen is awesome. I'd add another level to the tree which grants an additional 2:mana_regen: and 10:mana:.

    Perception - as others have said "Third Sight" is pretty useless. I'd be happy if it were just a copy of "second sight" - so I could alternate the two for perma-buffs! Eye lasers scaling even more with :sight: would also be awesome. Or, just a much faster cooldown, and a debuff proc which reduces enemy :resist_conflagratory:?

    Burglary - perfect.

    Assassination - should grant more :sneakiness: with every level. Because seriously.

    Fungal - this is almost perfect, with the exception of the Spore Cloud - which always seemed like a huge waste of a level. Make this deal serious damage - or stun strongly - or do something which makes it a useful melee effect!

    Crafting skills & Archeology - perfect. As more secret recipes come in, I'd like to consider moving more recipes into the base mix... because right now the chance of getting the recipe you need is pretty low...

    Big Game Hunter - Put a bit more :crit: onto levels 2 and 4, and increase the bonus XP as you increase in level. The big problem with the tree is Hunter's Lure - which is a huge waste of time - I never use it, ever. EVER. Replace with something much more useful.

    Emomancy - reasonable as it is. I don't use the tree much.

    Werediggle - I think I've played werediggles more than most people, and I'm here to tell you that they are WEAK. This skill needs significant passive bonuses at every level - since they only apply half the time, I'd like to see 15:block:, 20:life:, 5:life_regen:, 20:magic_resist:, 10:melee_power:, 10:crit: added across the tree. The actual skills & abilities as they are provide lots of fun - but werediggles just need a ton of passive bonuses to make up for the lost skills bonuses from your other 6 skill trees.

    Killer Vegan - This tree is very strong, but it causes a big, rather frustrating shift in play-style. I think it's great just as it is.

    Piracy - this tree is pretty great as it is. I'd like Mists of Corsair to last 12 turns (or 20!) instead of just 8, and an improved Cannon would be nice - I'd prefer faster reload to more damage. But this tree is quite strong as it is now.

    Demonology - the first 3 levels are great, but the Demon Form is just laughably bad. Give it 100:block:, and suddenly it would be a pretty awesome. Seriously - 100:block: bonus on Demon Form!

    I won't comment on the 4 new skill sets, as I haven't used them very extensively.
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  12. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    People who don't buy into dual wielding are missing out on four very worthwhile, very good upgrades. Every level of it is well worth it.

    Capstone skill is "weak" only for werediggles or warriors who wear armor. Those don't synergize well with master of arms anyway, master of arms shines most on mages who cannot afford wearing armor.

    Providing further drops in spell costs past level 8 seems... suspect. A character with enough levels for what you're proposing will steamroll things anyway and there is hardly a big need for tweaks at that point.

    How is magic training at all weak? You get a projectile attack that silences with one buy in. You get mana recovery with three buys in. It makes your spells stronger, and cheaper. It makes blood magic return more mana, too (and makes vampirism steal more health).

    More like terribly overpowered. But like with killer vegan, it is really up to gaslamp to properly fix burglary. Modders aren't really in a good position to.

    With enough stealth the confusion cloud will give you some ability to escape. If any change has to be made to it, it is simply that it should be reliable. Fungal Arts does not need buffed, though. Not by a long shot.

    The last thing I'd use to describe werediggle is "weak". As a skill onto itself it's absurdly good. The main problem with it is its lack of synergy with other skills. This could be achieved by letting it give some passive buffs outside of polymorphed form that strengthen when inside it.

    The demon form is laughably bad by design, to frustrate users of flames of the heckforge. Given that that joke has not survived YHTNTEP though, it'll perhaps be good to get rid of it altogether.
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  13. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Oh... i also think that Killing Blow should trigger onkill in melee, and grant a bonus hit on the player's next melee attack. This makes it useful when fighting groups. Right now, it's a very situational free crit of limited usefulness, and it's not a very attractive capstone.
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  14. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    But the problem is - Magic Training doesn't really do a better job of making spells stronger or cheaper than simply taking a level of any magic school - which provides almost as much :magic_power: and :savvy: - but ALSO gives you a spell - and gets you closer to another awesome capstone spell. For Magic Training to be attractive, I believe it needs to do a much better job of providing passive bonus stats - to :savvy: especially.

    If I take all 5 levels of Magic Training, I end up with 15:sagacity:, 19:savvy:, 9.5:magic_power:.
    If I take 5 levels of Promethean Magic (or any school) I get 10:sagacity:, 10:savvy:, 5:magic_power:. Magic Training simply doesn't offer a whole lot more than any other magic tree, and it should.
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  15. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    "Nearly twice as much" isn't "a whole lot more"?
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  16. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    Actually, Magic Training gave 5 Savvy in 1.0.10. GLG apparently saw fit to nerf that, do we really need to change it back?
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  17. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    I very much think it should be changed back. I believe the nerf was motivated because many early skills scale poorly, so 5:savvy: was seen as too much. But that's a problem with spell costs, not the bonus. In my opinion, of course.
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  18. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    I thought they were worried about :haywire:. Magic Resist is the only defense monsters have against 75% of the player's spells. By that, I mean that even if monsters were given :reflection:, it wouldn't make much of a difference as most of the player's spells are not bolt type spells. Player magic carries no risk of counter and the only defense against it is essentially the same as a block, there's no magic dodge. Add in all the mana regenerative abilities of a mage and the fact that ranged combat is inherently superior to melee combat, all other factors being the same (which, I grant you, they're not in this game, but it doesn't entirely make up the difference) and magic is already powerful.

    Does it really need a support skill that gives nearly a 20% chance of ignoring :magic_resist: on top of all its other advantages? No, I feel it really doesn't. I'd also like to see spells scale more, to make stats more relevant to magery (I'd also like them to have higher minimum costs, so that mana regeneration matters more after the third floor) but I'm not sure piling a ton of savvy into one skill is the right way to do it. It sounds more like asking for a new must-have to replace Blood Mage.
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  19. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    I think we're actually on the same page here. Higher base costs make it more important to either have lower spell costs (via Magic Training) or more mana regen (via Blood Magic or Ley Lines or Alchemy). Those last three are all very viable at filling that role - only Magic Training comes up a bit short in that respect. It's not a useless skill at all - but it doesn't really measure up to the others.
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  20. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    I always got the impression that Magic Training's purpose was to save you mana by giving your more mileage for each spell. More haywire + more power = fewer casts per enemy. I'd actually like to see it give :magic_power: on levels 3 and 4, to keep with that theme, maybe ditch the bonus MP entirely...
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