Why "it's a roguelike, it's not meant to be fair" is silly

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by Kaidelong, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    But then again, it's VoM and not base game, and people should expect to be treated to such things if they get VoM.
    Thus, it's another thing entirely, since those traps don't have to be "fair" as people aren't forced to avoid them unless they use your mod.
    shaken likes this.
  2. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    This is exactly right. Modders don't have the responsibility of keeping the game marketable, although if they want their mods to be marketable it might help to try not to raise the difficulty of the game.
    DavidB1111 likes this.
  3. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    This isn't so much a matter of fairness as predictability.

    When you can identify a threat and prepare for it, and that preparation will adequately nullify the threat, that is completely within the scope of the game, fine.
    When you can identify a threat, but can't prepare for it, or your preparation will always be inadequate, this is not fine. For instance, some suggested letting enemies knock the player around, even into drowning zones or similar. Without some way to prevent enemy knockback, the most you can do is mitigate your chances, and it becomes one more thing you can't control. In a similar manner, dealing with the bugged rutabaga was bullshit of the highest caliber for a melee warrior, even though it wasn't especially an interruption for dodge/counter rogues, ranged combatants, etc. This may sound like "roguelikes aren't fair, you're a warrior deal with it", but instead is a problem that goes against Gaslamp's goal of viability for all their options, in that warriors had no way to adequately prepare for this threat, hence it became unfair for them.
    SkyMuffin and DavidB1111 like this.
  4. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I think the word fair is used far too often and rarely if ever defined.
  5. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    For a game like DoD, it'd be defined as something like this:

    Fairness in Dredmor relates to the player having a chance to get to find Dredmor on levels 10 or 15, allowing him or her reasonable precautions against specific enemies and their attacks, regardless of their skill choices or gameplay style.

    So, things like the rutabaga poison - according to my definition - are unfair and unreasonable, as melée characters are unable to take reasonable precautions against their attack or to mitigate it. Kleptoblobbies, however, are fair and reasonable as their ability is fairly limited (AFAIK) and they're low-health, low-damage enemies. I think.

    Dredmor is one I'd put closer to unreasonable as he is much harder than almost every other enemy in-game by a wide margin, so the player isn't quite prepared for him the first few times. IMHO.
  6. mining

    mining Member

    IMO fairness is the capacity to make decisions to significantly alter the effect of a situation on yourself. If on seeing it, you can do nothing, it wasn't fair (proviso: You are in a situation to deal with a threat ;))
  7. Blue

    Blue Member

    No character in Dredmor is exclusively melee, as long as there is stuff to throw, missile weapons, warrior trees with ranged skills, traps lying about, wands and whatnot (unless you restrict yourself from these).

    Also: difficulty levels, optional permadeth, saves and mods.

    I'd say DoD is as fair as the options and handicaps you choose to impose yourself, as it is very much configurable to taste and this is where its accessibility comes from, in my opinion.
    Kazeto likes this.
  8. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    See, I would define "fair" as an inverse relationship between risk and time invested (both in total time played and the time invested in the current run). So dredmor could be considered a little unfair as he is very difficult the first time you face him on a character you have invested 20+ hours into. However, given several runs dredmor is fairly managable by the time you face him given that you have the tools to deal with him by that time. So he is only a little unfair because given enough time invested in the game he is only bit risky.

    By that same definition, it's completely fair to open up the first door and get killed on DL 1 because you start out with few tools to handle the game.
  9. GreyICE

    GreyICE Member

    Do people really complain about caltrop eruptors?

    I deliberately step on them for the XP from picking up 9 squares of caltrops. It's not like they do any real damage to anyone with decent armor.
  10. SkyMuffin

    SkyMuffin Member

    The DL 1 Rusty Caltrops dont even do as much as Fire, Boulder, or Blade traps. I dont understand why people would complain, they are great for XP or wiping out a few monsters.
  11. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Actually, they should do as much as a Shoddy Dwarven IED.
  12. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    I only dislike them because they can get enormously tedious, they're otherwise fine.
  13. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    Yeah, that's the main problem. They can often seem really frequent at times, so to go from one to another to another to another is just pretty boring.
  14. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I don't really understand that comment: they spawn just as often as other traps do.
  15. Shaxarok

    Shaxarok Member

    And take quite a bit longer to disarm, depending on how bad your luck/stats are, and they can really start to seem frequent, especially since they require more care than other traps. Basically, you know how the Dragonsbreaths were annoying because of the recursion? It's like that but less so.
  16. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Member

    I like them.

    If you have trap skill, they're easy xp/money/lutefisk/ammo.

    If you don't, don't step on them, same as other traps.

    If you do step on one, there are more dangerous traps out there. Kinda fun to see which is the least painful escape route, and/or lead monsters through the new field of pointyness.

    As long as they're not recursive I find them fun. (and tbh a 3% recursion rate or so would be fun too ^_^ just not the "more likely than not" room filler from before.)
  17. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    I, personally, find them annoying. Maybe I'm just the one person who does, maybe others do too. But I find them annoying.

    It also doesn't help that the traps can get stuck under things like vending machines.
  18. flagoon

    flagoon Member

    I'm new to Dredmor, I played maybe 60+ hours on it, last 50 on GRPD. To be honest since that change I never reach further than 4th floor. My wife and friends laugh at me every time they hear characteristic sound I made when dying. And I'm dying a lot. But it's always my fault, never accused Dredmor, that the game is unfair.