Why "it's a roguelike, it's not meant to be fair" is silly

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by Kaidelong, Aug 8, 2012.

  1. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Sure they are. They deal comparable damage to other traps on their respective levels: the only real advantage they have are the eruptors making more of them, and even in that case you can use those defensively very easily (even if you're just luring a monster into it).
  2. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    Um, Kazeto? Did you mean Kaidolong? Because I haven't posted to this thread. Unless I did and then deleted it... Either I shouldn't make posts right after I wake up or you need to get some sleep....
    TheJadedMieu and FaxCelestis like this.
  3. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Kill me. And blame it on my sleep deprivation...

    I'm changing it to make sense right now.
  4. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    That Kazeto's a SPAH![​IMG]
  5. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    I disagree. Rather than a 1x1 trap, if your initial disarm goes wrong you end up with a 3x3 grid, some of which may require a higher skill to disarm than the initial trap itself.

    That and they love to spawn in frakking awkward places.
  6. Kablooie

    Kablooie Member

    I dislike the Caltrop traps m'self, but they're great if you're running a trapster (as I am currently, what with Perception, Tinkering,and Burgulary).

    There does seem to be a lot of them lately. My RNG God, I guess.

    "What does fair have to do with anything" :cool:
  7. Hanz Ketchup

    Hanz Ketchup Member

    omg u meen persun
  8. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    hnaz pls
  9. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Sure, but you can still lure a monster into the field, use a shove effect, or simply go around most times.

    Besides, traps should be dangerous: they're highly visible and completely passive, so their negative effects should be more dangerous than a plain monster.
  10. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I think he has a point, Fax. The problem with caltrop eruptors is that every other trap (other than the wall bolts, but those you can bypass by simply not ignoring the launchers on the walls) is a one-use thing, while this one isn't, and not only can it potentially replicate itself ad nauseam, the caltrops are even more difficult to disarm. Sure, it's not a problem for rogue-ish characters with a lot of trap sense and trap affinity, but people playing as (almost) pure warriors or wizards are going to curse them.
    The solution here would be to make caltrops (but not launchers) much more visible than any other trap on the level, effectively making them visible to a much higher percentage of players.
  11. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    The Night of the Recursive Caltrops has come and gone. I hope.

    Also general rule seems to be Fax + Recursion = OH NO THE WHOLE FLOOR IS ON FIRE AND COVERED IN CALTROPS
  12. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    The only one that recursed was the dragonsbreath eruptor, only found rarely on the 14th and 15th floor (in addition to mysterious portals), and that one no longer does so.

    Again, there are ways to disarm or neutralize traps without even a single point in :trap_level:. Creative thinking (you know, what got you to the 15th floor to begin with) will let you handle high-level traps without issue.

  13. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    Personally, I consider having to prepare for extremely dangerous traps to just be part of the game. I think this was true before there were caltrop eruptors (I'd actually consider thaumites more dangerous) and it's true now. It's something to prepare for no matter what character type you're playing.

    Personally, ever since they buffed Perception to include lots of free loot, I almost never go without it even if I'm not playing a crafter. And as FaxCelestis said, if you see a trap you can often find a way to safely set it off even if disarming it isn't possible. Usually by summoning a minion, so there's the wizard archetype option. Warriors typically have enough health that they can afford more missteps.

    If I were to change caltrop eruptors at all, I'd like it if they either didn't do damage by themselves, or they were at least consistent about the caltrop type they erupt. If I step on a strong caltrop eruptor, seven of those should not be plastic caltrops that my rogue isn't able to safely disarm yet.
  14. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    I am entirely sure that I don't need to know where or how dungeons of dredmor fits in into the genre to know that I love playing it and spend more times on it than any other game I have. I love the humor, the art, and the pace. I love the gaslamp guys.

    The only critique I can give is that I wish they would roll out bugfixes slightly faster.
  15. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    I've killed the self-spawning of all/any eruptors AND made them spawn fewer traps upon triggering for the next patch. (If someone - Fax? - wants to mod back in self-replicating trap-bombs, feel quite free.)
    Midnight Tea likes this.
  16. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I have plenty of evil, evil traps in The Vaults of Maslech, a mod I'm working on.
  17. Megaron

    Megaron Member

    "Evil" does not cut it for what kinds of traps he has planned. He has created traps far too wretched for any man of any class to behold, let alone to attempt to disarm. He has created nightmares given form, he has combined undeath and unlife in one, he has weaved together the very fabrics of existance just to make a big trap in the form of a majestic middle finger. We asked Cthulhu to beta test it. He needed three months of therapy.
    Kazeto, FaxCelestis and DavidB1111 like this.
  18. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    That's why you need Nyarlathotep next time. He's the elder god that most gets off on anthropic cruelty, chaos and sadism. Though he's kind of annoying for a beta tester because he doesn't use anything but Necronomiconomics and Egyptian Magic.
  19. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Personally, I would have used Shub-Nigorath. :) The Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand young.
    I think she, and yes, it's a she, would be a good beta tester.
  20. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Two particularly vile traps from VoM:
    <!-- Oh god wizards are going to hate these. Better pack alchemy or a zodiacal wand! -->
    <item name="Dread Manasap Trap" iconFile="dungeon/trap_pressure_plate0.png" >
        <trap origin="sprites/manasap/manasap.xml" originFacing="south" originMount="wall" trigger="always" casts="Dread Manasap Bolt" level="15"/>
        <price amount="1500" />
        <description text="Eldritch energies swirl about, congealing wherever the arcane eye on the wall sets its gaze."/>
    <item name="Congealing Corruptive Fluid Trap" iconFile="sprites/trap_oozy.png" >
        <price amount="2000" />
        <trap trigger="once" casts="DoT Corrupt" level="16" />
        <description text="This is a particularly vile concoction that will eat your magical equipment for breakfast. And lunch. And dinner. And a midnight snack." />
    <!-- Dread Manasap Trap -->
    <spell name="Dread Manasap" type="target" icon="skills/wizard/spell_black8_32.png" >
        <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/null" frames="2" framerate="100" sfx="naughty" />
        <buff useTimer="0" manaUpkeep="1" bad="1" removable="0" allowStacking="0" stacksize="1" self="0" icon="skills/wizard/spell_black8_64.png" smallicon="skills/wizard/spell_black8_32.png" >
            <primarybuff id="1" amount="-5" />
            <secondarybuff id="14" amount="-5" />
        <description text="You can feel your mind slipping away..." />
    <spell name="Dread Manasap Bolt" type="missile" icon="skills/wizard/spell_black8_32.png" >
        <impact sprite="sprites/sfx/bloodmagic/bloodmagic" frames="7" framerate="70" />
        <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/curse_loop/curse_loop" frames="7" framerate="80" />
        <effect type="damage" aethereal="34" affectsCaster="1" />
        <effect type="trigger" spell="Dread Manasap" affectsCaster="1" />
    <!-- Congealing Corruptive Fluid Trap -->
    <spell name="DoT Corruption Effect" type="target" >
        <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/acid_burn/acid_burn" frames="7" framerate="50" sfx="acid" />
        <description text="I fully expect people to hate me forever for this." />
        <effect type="corrupt" affectsCaster="1" />
    <spell name="DoT Corrupt" type="target" >
        <effect type="dot" spell="DoT Corruption Effect" amount="15" affectsCaster="1" />
        <anim sprite="sprites/sfx/acid_burn/acid_burn" frames="7" framerate="50" sfx="acid" />
        <description text="A particularly vile sort of spell." />