Why is tourist a wizard skill

Discussion in 'Conquest of the Wizardlands' started by Kaidelong, Aug 10, 2012.

  1. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Perhaps it is intended for use by wizards, or is especially good on wizards, but virtually all the trappings it gives (sight radius, trap affinity, XP farming help, loads of cooldown skills) are things that I always thought was supposed to be for rogues. Other than the crafting skills magic skills have so far almost always been either for using up your mana or making more of it available.

    I mean, it's okay if a skill of one archetype is best used on a character dominated by another archetype isn't it? A pure mage will not get as much out of necroeconomics as a warrior type, and the warrior skill staves is mainly about making a wizard bulkier.

    It seems like a strange choice.
    r_b_bergstrom likes this.
  2. Giygas

    Giygas Member

    I could see Tourist as being useful for wizards. You've got a little extra :mana_regen:, plus you get :trap_level: which is hard for wizards to get early on and :sight: for casting spells from farther away. Not to mention, you've got unlimited food and a good panic button.
  3. Dynamod

    Dynamod Member

    Ive seen a few things from CotW that go against type, for example communist having healing despite being a warrior skill, and Egyptian Magic granting Trap affinity, I think the idea behind these new skills was to diversity the benefits of each playstyle so that it would be easier to play as a pure archetype.

    besides, tourist doesn't really make sense as a warrior skill asthetically, and gameplay wise a ton of skills already grant the benefits tourist gives in the warrior and rogue archetypes. evading combat, increasing monetary gain, and trap affinity especially. making tourist anything BUT wizard would make it pale in comparison.
  4. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I think that the whole skill tree has some connection to the "Discworld" series, which would make it appropriate as a wizard skill.

    And if you want a real argument, how about this: wizards are all about getting through things slowly (mana has to regenerate) but firmly, and thus a skill that promotes slow gameplay and gives some "safety" skills (like getting food out of anything) is best suited to complement that.

    With Egyptian Magic, I see the given trap affinity as something natural - if you have Egyptian Magic, then you are a pharaoh or someone of similar importance, and thus you live in a pyramid, and since pyramids are usually filled with traps and you can't not be able to move around your own home, you learn how to get around traps.

    And the whole "healing ability despite being a warrior skill tree" for Communism is weird in my opinion, too. If anything, I think that every archetype should have one or two sources of healing among their skill trees, even though wizards should have the most potent ones - something that slowly heals you over time is something you would almost expect warriors to have, and it would also be fun if rogues had a way to heal by getting rid of buffs (or debuffs even, though that would be more difficult to balance).
  5. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Why would people want to play a pure archetype in the first place?

    Actually Twoflower was an actuary. I guess that has some relationship to mathemagic, and he did ride a dragon for a while, but he was more of a beauracrat than a wizard.

    Also lots of rogue skills complement wizard really nicely. For example, Fungal Arts delivers its biggest bang for spellcasters and especially alchemists by providing a reliable source of bonus mana and damage sponges to tank for you, but it's a rogue skill.

    Also I agree that trap affinity makes sense on egyptian magic. It's also a perk on a mostly mana-based skill, which definitely places it firmly in the wizard camp.
    Kazeto likes this.
  6. But math is already established to be a form of magic! Ergo actuaries are wizards :p

    I would definitely agree that Tourist looks more like a rogue skill though. It's not that it can't work as a mage skill it's just a little out of place amongst all the other mage skills.
    Kazeto likes this.
  7. Urthdigger

    Urthdigger Member

    I figured it was a reference to Nethack, one of the archtypical ROGUElike games, which did have a tourist class that got a stunning camera is a starter item.
  8. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    That was a reference to discworld.
  9. Createx

    Createx Member

    Why not both? Also, the tourist's companion is a wizard (though not a good one...) :p
  10. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Rincewind is probably more of a rogue, given that his main prowess is athletic, but not the fighting kind.
  11. Createx

    Createx Member

    He is a wizzard. It says so on his hat. Since TF 2 we know that hats are more important than anything, so it must be true.
    Doc Gelegentlich likes this.
  12. Frelus

    Frelus Member

    But what is a wizzard?
    Is it a sharlatan rogue?
    Is it a rogue wizard?
    Is it potato?
    Who knows?
  13. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Tourist doesn't seem like a wizard skill to me, either. The only thing that makes me think wizard with it is the minimal :mana_regen: on level one and the diskworld parallel. As kaidelong said, many of it's powers are things that have been mechanically associated with rogues (money and xp farming, trap skills, and escape buttons that come with cooldown timers instead of mana requirements).

    See the Sights (the level that gives :trap_sense: and :trap_level:) seems like a lost opportunity to me. The drawback when it's active is a penalty to :sneakiness:. If that was on a rogue skill, that would be interesting and a serious trade-off to have to manage. I'd turn it on whenever I was just a little shy of the :trap_level: needed to disarm a trap, and then turn it off again before I needed to use some other skill that scales on :sneakiness:. But on a wizard build, I usually don't care about :sneakiness: so I feel no desire to ever turn it off. What could be a dynamic ability instead turns into just another passive stat boost on a wizard. The :trap_sense: is admittedly a wonderful and welcome stat boost for a wizard, but the :trap_level: is quickly meaningless to wizards. On a rogue, it's 2 more points of :trap_level:, whereas for a wizard it's my only 2 :trap_level:. In a rogue build it has good synergy and stays relevant for most of the dungeon. In a wizard build it's a life-saver on floor 1 but stops being useful after the second or third floor, because you're not about to ever attempt that 35% disarm chance on the thaumite nest.

    Many of the other abilities in the tree would be useful to a rogue, whereas better options exist for anyone who has a steady source of mana.
    • Summoning monsters that might be friendly? Rogues only have 1 skill for summoning pets at the moment, but wizards have a variety of skills that do it better. So a rogue build that wants a pet but doesn't expect to have much mana would be reasonably happy with this, whereas any wizard that wants a pet can get one for a pittance of mana that's going to be a lot more reliable.
    • Eating random junk? Rogues often get extra junk via Burglary, Perception, or Fungal Arts. Plus, with all the money generating methods rogues have, they hit the point where zorkmids are useless several floors before other character types. Being able to clean out inventory space and get a small boost in the process is something that's appealing to a rogue whose swimming in lucky finds and yoinks, but not particularly exciting for a wizard that can choose better healing magic.
    • Escaping to a previous floor at the cost of losing an item? While escaping is useful to any character, and especially so for lightly-armored not-so-great-in melee builds, rogue will have the best tools for replacing the lost item. It's a trade-off rogues are more happy to make. Plus, again, wizards usually have the option of teleporting to the edge of the room and unleashing some sick area-effect spell, which is often far better than fleeing up a level and losing an item.
    • +10% zorkmids? On it's own, you'll never notice it.10% just isn't enough to matter if you're not doing something else to boost your income. This would of course have good synergy with other skills that get you a leg up on the money situation, and most of those skills are rogue skills.
    The concept of a wizard skill that's most appealing to rogues is interesting to me, but since tourist is not a particularly powerful skill, I don't find it particularly tempting to take it out-of-archetype and suffer slightly lower :dodge::edr::counter::crit: and :life: as a result. The bonus :block: and :magic_resist: don't outweigh those stats for most rogue builds. It also doesn't feel enough like a wizard to make the "rogue + tourist" build play any different than a pure rogue build. These stumbling blocks are a let down sad since everything but the 1 :mana_regen: has equal or better synergy with rogue skills than it does with wizard skills.
    Essence and Kazeto like this.
  14. Wolg

    Wolg Member

    Based on what I've seen of tourists from (and to) this country, the wizard link is straightforward: booze, in large quantities.
    Kaidelong likes this.
  15. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

  16. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    That's why I used the word "most" in the same bullet point.

    Wizard has Mathemagic, vs Rogue having Burglary, Perception, Piracy, and Bankster.

    With which of those two groups does Tourist have the most in common?

    (I suppose technically Fungal Arts and all the crafting skills can help you get ahead on money as well, but I feel that rather than spreading the money love around, that just further reinforces the concept "rogues get most money farming". All the crafting skills were actually rogue skills prior to 1.0.8.)
  17. eskr

    eskr Member

    Fighters and Rogues are both classes whose concept is predicated on doing something unpleasant to other people.
    Wizard is a class predicated on understanding the universe (knowledge of which, incidentally, can be used to do unpleasant things to other people, but this is a side effect).

    Seeing as a tourist ought to be the friendly sort, and seeing as how touristing in a dangerous dungeon is the kind of thing that would mostly appeal to the adled-headed and/or academic minded Tourist ought to be a Wizard skill simply for flavor.
    Flavor first, mechanics can be worked out.
    It's also nice, as mentioned, to have a trap seeing option in a purge mage build. The zorkmids thing is a bit random as skills go though.
  18. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Y'all just don't get it. Tourist is a wizard class for the same reason that Degree in Dungeoneering is a wizard class -- because tourists just aren't particularly buff or tricky.