Why is "This translation is all wrong" considered too powerful and will be nerfed in 1.04?

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by TraditionalGuy, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    @clocknova - I thought about it some more, and you're right that I shouldn't have used such heavy real world logic. However; this still doesn't seem like the right ability to give too much power too. The ability comes off as being meant as random and a risk of losing the benefits an already decent item when trying to "make" a better one.

    I already mentioned that it literally has no cost other than skill points and time spent recovering the ability. Isn't it powerful enough to allow yourself to be guaranteed pieces of equipment that suit your character's strengths with no need to farm resources?

    I don't think the nerfing of this ability will do much to make the game "less fun", considering that to take full advantage of it requires using it in the most boring way possible.
  2. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    No, I completely understand how the bug works. I currently have a sword that has some of every type of damage, so the bug is quite evident. For the umpteenth time, all that needs changing is that negative enhancements should be removed and not turned into positive ones. Fixing the bug just means that damage enhancements are removed and rerolled just like resistance and stat enhancements, ie. exactly like what happens when you reroll a piece of armor. TTIAW currently works just fine on everything but weapons; every reroll strips the current enchantments back to the basic item stats, then adds new enchantments equal to the previous number. Negatives get stripped too, and the possibility of getting another negative is still there, but is not certain. That's how it worked when I rerolled my twice-blessed Embossed Serpentine Platemail.

    Now that I think about it, it might be enough just to fix the stacking bug and leave everything else. The essential problem here is that every blessing or curse that is placed on an item becomes another potential blessing if rerolled enough. So, if golems corrupt your items by ADDING an entirely new enchantment (albeit a negative one) then your item has a new slot which can be turned into a positive with some patience, thus leading to a possible exploit. But if the golems just take an existing enchantment and TURN IT INTO a negative, then the total number of enchantments remains the same, so rerolling doesn't give you more enchantments than you had before. Anyone know which way the golems work?

    As far as I'm concerned only the anvil should be able to add enchantments to an item. And I think that a player with the TTIAW should be able to turn those into positives if they want to. So long as the damage stacking bug is fixed, it gives them a couple of chances each level to really improve an item, which is a nice reward for developing that skill line.

    If you don't like the skill, don't take it. I think, with the damage stacking bug addressed, it's quite fun. And the magicky golems are still a threat even with TTIAW, as I discovered last night when I was forced to reroll my favorite sword and lost the enhancements that were exactly what I wanted and had to settle for some different ones that I liked far less. But at least it wasn't corrupted. So the skill isn't perfect.
  3. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    "But if the golems just take an existing enchantment and TURN IT INTO a negative, then the total number of enchantments remains the same, so rerolling doesn't give you more enchantments than you had before."

    Wouldn't this would affect characters that don't use Archaeology, as corruption would mean much less if you choose to use a weapon that doesn't have a lot of enchantments?

    "And I think that a player with the TTIAW should be able to turn those into positives if they want to. So long as the damage stacking bug is fixed, it gives them a couple of chances each level to really improve an item, which is a nice reward for developing that skill line."

    Can you explain why not being able to change negatives into positives would leave the skill tree as not a big enough reward? I'm probably ignorant on how bad the abilities actually are especially on GR, but they seem to be designed to be fairly supplemental rather than the centerpiece of the game's strategy, and you only really need 3 skill points to complete the tree and you get a new ability for each one.
  4. Omnia0001

    Omnia0001 Member

    ...seriously? these suggestions are somewhat weak. After fixing TTIAW's bug (the dmg enhancements..) it should work this way: When used on an item, it tally's up all the enchantment slots, one for total positives and one for total negitives. Each of those numbers is randomly modified +1,0, or -1. Then those values are randomly distributed across all possible enhancements.

    What does this do? Allows for negitives to (possibly) be removed at a slow rate (or by being on the same slot as a positive, cancelling it out or mitigating the positive). While having a similar effect on positive values.. but also allowing for an item to be improved/weakened over time.

    Alternate suggestion: Total up -all- enhancements to one number, modify the number randomly by +2 to -2, then randomly roll for +1, 0 , -1 to each enhancement slot until the total enhancement values equal the modified enhancement number.

    The main point I want to bring is TTIAW was always about being able to randomly redistribute values around with some possible overall improvement/degrade. Being able to mitigate negitive values should still exist, but not in extreme cases (ie: intentional degredation of items via magik monsters). Now, with my examples, some exception cases can be considered.. like if the item's total enhancement number is 0.
  5. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    Yes, seriously. My suggestion isn't weak at all. In fact, it makes perfect sense and is more in keeping with the current spirit of the skill. Your suggestion takes it way too far in the opposite direction, leaving it so underpowered as to make it a waste of time and skill points. Thanks for the input, though.

    Because the other skills, along with a severely nerfed TTIAW just don't offer enough of an advantage to sacrifice a more combat-oriented skill line. TTIAW is the main reason to take Archaeology.

    It seems to me that most of the skill lines (the better ones, anyway) lead up to a skill that has the potential to be the centerpiece of a player's strategy, while the other ones remain supplemental. I think that's the whole point; a character is designed around a particular skill or set of skills.
  6. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    TTIAW isn't really a skill to design a character around though. It's more of a skill to make equipment that suits your character.

    I think my issue is "Archaeology vs. no Archaeology". The fact that TTIAW is the only way to remove negative enchantments when there's no clear indication that it can suggests that the game is currently meant to be played with this disadvantage. In the end, I wouldn't mind if it can and I like Omnia's compromise, but at this point it sounds like a cry not to nerf the ability one likes too much.

    Really, the ability to remove negative enchantments should probably be something outside of Archaeology such as a rare item. This would help characters without Archaeology as well as give those that do have an option of removing a negative while configuring their equipment and being consumable would disallow it to continue if they no longer have any of the item.
  7. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    As I see it, the best solution, and the one we all can agree on, unless some of us just love arguing, that is, :) is to have a maximum cap of how good the stats on an item can be.
    That way, we address the insane stacking damage bug, we address the corruption monsters corrupting your gear, and we address something most rogue-likes have, a way to counteract item damage.

    Angband had Enchant scrolls, ADOM had smithing, which is almost broken, really, :), etc, etc.

    "Tossing you up (or down!) a dlevel, " No! We don't need Teleport Level monsters, and we don't need Nexus damage either. I don't want my Sagacity to replace my Burliness, thank you. :) It's all fun and games until your highest stat is replaced by your lowest stat.
  8. Omnia0001

    Omnia0001 Member

    How does it make perfect sense? If it did I wouldn't be finding it to be a weak suggestion. Besides semantics, my suggestion was directly from how I felt TTIAW was used in majority of my games until I stumbled on the bug. Making the mechanic being very much a redistribution of points of the item it's used on with some random effects tacked on.

    I feel that TTIAW should have the ability to possibly flip negitives into positives (both suggestions have the possibilty of doing this) but prevent people from fully recovering from a bad krong and/or excessive corruption on an item. TTIAW's best point should be the ability to redistribute points till you get the appropiate buffs, the secondary effects of possibly removing negatives and getting a better item overall should just be sprinkles on the cake.

    If you want an ability to reverse (fully) bad krongs and over-corruption, it should be a separate skill tree or item. As that is an effect that is powerful in itself.


    Thank you for liking my idea, would you have any suggestions on refining it? It's something that is a base idea that can have exceptions added on.


    No max stat caps on items. Stacking bug will be fixed and my main arguement about it is that this game has a limited # of floors so there's a limited amount of chances to improve a single item, that should be enough of a ceiling. The main issue should be how to tailor TTIAW so that it doesn't turn super neg into super pos, but can deal with minor neg (getting corrupted once by accident). If the game needs something to remove tons of corruption.. it should be added as a different skill/item so it can be properly 'balanced' better.
  9. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    I guess it's just because I say it is. If it was weak, I wouldn't be saying it wasn't ;)

    As long as I as the player has some way to repair the damage done to items, I'll be happy, although I really think that it belongs solely with the Archaeology skill line, thus providing the best motivation to take that line. Perhaps one more final skill in that line?

    Aside from that, if they nerf it in a way I find detrimental, hopefully I can just find a way to mod it back. So everyone gets to be happy.

    Thanks. I like the way you think. I just hope this gets resolved before my vacation time is over and I don't have the time to waste playing this silly game and talking about it on this forum!
  10. rederick

    rederick Member

    Is it an aspect of this skill to randomly change the values either way? As to say, can using TTIAW cause a +2 pierce, +2 ex, etc to suddenly alter those darling little plus signs into mean little minus signs? Don't know if it's just bad luck or not, but I've turned some relatively decent artifacts into pretty pathetic paperweights just by calling in Marcus Brody.

    After that happens I never have the heart to keep trying my luck, and into ye olde horadric lutefisk cube it goes.
  11. Timrod

    Timrod Member

    I'd agree with an archaeology nerf the same day they fix the game so it isn't 100% RNG dependent. When you've gone down five floors and haven't found a single weapon better than a rusty sword, no amount of skill is going to save you. Archaeology is literally the only viable way to do well in this game (apart from reloading saves every time you encounter an anvil).