Why is "This translation is all wrong" considered too powerful and will be nerfed in 1.04?

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by TraditionalGuy, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. NefariousKoel

    NefariousKoel Member

    The big question should be:

    After a nerf, will anyone still use the skill line?

    I don't consider it a must as it is, right now.
  2. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @NefariousKoel If they fix the bug with damage stacking, and eliminate the ability to turn negative enchantments into positive enchantments, and MAYBE make it the 4th Level Ability then it will be nicely balanced and fun.

    If they eliminate the ability to reroll entirely, then we will have to see what they replace it with to determine if it becomes a skill to avoid.
  3. Bhruic

    Bhruic Member

    What "ability to turn negative enchantments into positive enchantments"?? I got a negative enchantment via altar, and spent dozens of attempts re-rolling it. The very best result that I could manage is to have the item appear to not have an enchantment. Not once with well over 30+ rolls did I ever get it to have a positive enchantment.
  4. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Yeah, this ability is overpowered for keeping the item stats the way it does. I do hope it gets somewhat nerfed. It should still be useful for rerolling the corruption and displeasing though.

    All games with equipment damaging monsters have a way to counter that damage. From Angband, and it's scrolls of *enchant weapon* and *enchant armor* to this game's artifact rerolling. Games without countering make Omega look easy. :)
  5. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    They most definitely should NOT remove the ability to turn negative enchantments into positive ones. That's a major part of the reward for taking this skill and not a combat one. If they do change it, they should at least make it something easy to change back by altering an XML file or something. There's nothing overpowered about it. The damage stacking. . . perhaps.
  6. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @Clocknova They should definitely remove the ability to turn negative enchantments into positive ones because monsters have an INFINITE ability to apply negative enchantments. The only other solution would be to remove the ability for monsters to apply negative enchantments and that would be against the spirit of roguelikes.
  7. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    So long as the player retains the ability to at least remove those negative enchantments, that's fine.
  8. Lavastar

    Lavastar Member

    I agree on changing the skill to such that each negative enchantment can only be changed to another type of negative enchantment (hoping it gets rolled to a less useful attribute for your character); and each positive enchantment to another type of positive enchantment, while maintaining the same numeric value. Then, I think it would still be a good skill, but not too good as it is now.
  9. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    Then they should make sure that we can change it back easily through a mod or an XML file. Removing negative enchantments is a must have.
  10. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    Why are removing negative enchantments a "must have"? Can't it be enough that you are able to find a clean artifact, upgrade it, and be able to tune it to support your character's playstyle?

    Removing negative enchantments wouldn't really suit the ability's theme anyway. It's a re-translation of an artifact, which shouldn't logically remove magical curses, just give a different translation on what the curse actually is.
  11. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @KittenMaster You and I are in 100% Agreement.
  12. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    @Incendax Your opinion doesn't seem to keep in mind my above post.
    Look, I've played Roguelike games since 1997.
    All of the ones I've played have a way to repair damaged equipment. Why the heck would you want to remove one of the staples of Roguelikes?

    Seriously, you can't get rid of the ability to remove negative enchantments. IT would be against how rogue-likes function.
    Sorry. Also, unless someone can prove you can cheese the game by getting an item with way too many curses, and reroll it into something that's more powerful than Ringil, Sting, Bladeturner, and the One Ring all rolled into one, then no, I will not agree with you.
    Those are all artifacts from Angband by the way.
  13. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @DavidB1111 I like to experiment. That means I sometimes do neurotic or strange things like stand in front of a Magicky golem and allow it to attack me over and over again until I could reroll it to create a mace that does more than 1,200 damage per hit. We're not even talking about the Archaeology bug here. It was one single reroll.

    Try it. You can do the same thing. The mace killed Lord Dredmor in one hit.
  14. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Okay. Wow. Well, I apologize if I sounded like a jerk.
    I'm in favor of nerfing it extremely now.
    Perhaps making it have a cap on how high the positive enchantments could get on a reroll?
  15. stutter

    stutter Member

    It's more than just removing negative enchantments. It's the fact that it's not really a random/re-reroll skill. You can't call it random if you can you reuse it indefinitely. You might as well just let people pick the stat they want and save everyone the time since the only thing another reroll costs you is turns. Turns are free in this game.

    That makes the skill too dependable. Building a counter build? Well nice. Now you can GUARANTEE that every item has counter on it. Or maybe a mage? Every item can have mana regen or magic power. It trivializes the fact you need to be adaptable in each game and roll with what is given to you.
  16. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    I can see how that would make the game less interesting, but it's probably best to see how the ability pans out without all of the bugs in it first.
  17. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    Or you could just, you know, not sit there and reroll it forever. Have a little self control rather than trying to force everyone else to play it the way you want. I like being able to remove negative enchantments. I agree that if the skill is letting people add an infinite number of enchantments (although I have yet to see this in my games) then it is probably bugged) but being able to "fix" your broken items is pretty basic and should be considered the main reward for taking the skill. If you don't like it you could, again, just not use it.

    @DavidB1111, thank you for a reasonable response.

    @Icendax, if you like to do weird, game-breaking things when you play, don't be surprised when weird, game-breaking things are the result. I don't see that as something that should be fixed. I see things like that as a reward for trying something that the game designer didn't think of. Personally, I'd love to get a mace like that just once, for the novelty of it.
  18. Jam Warrior

    Jam Warrior Member

    'Have some self control' is a terrible excuse for leaving in an unbalanced option. If it is easy to do then people will do it.

    Also it doesn't just remove negative enchants, it turns them into positive ones!

    Two simple possible fixes are either (a) only one reroll per artifact or (b) negative mods always stay as negatives and positive mods as positives.
  19. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    Or (c): Negative mods are removed rather than turned into positive ones. Everything else remains the same.

    Backing up savegame files and force-quitting when bad things happen is possible, so everyone is going to do it. Gotta find way to take that out, right? What if we erase their hard drives as soon as they install the game?

  20. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    @clocknova I understand you. Some people do not understand how things work though.
    To Jam Warrior, Your options are not fair. Because games like this deserve to have the ability to remove bad effects. Look at Angband, or almost any other major roguelike with item damaging monsters. They all have ways to counter it. From acid immunity to enchant weapon/armor scrolls.

    I don't know why I have to keep bringing this up. Put a cap on how big the positive stats can get, and problem solved. No big issues there.
    That said, why can't we all get along.