Why is "This translation is all wrong" considered too powerful and will be nerfed in 1.04?

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by TraditionalGuy, Jul 24, 2011.

  1. Could someone please explain to me? Thank you!
  2. It has a bug where you can keep using it and the stats will only get better and better. Besides, the skill is beast overall, it's like having your own krong every few turns and you can keep rolling items until they suit you
  3. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    There is nothing wrong with being able to reroll your stats. Perhaps at best it should be swapped with the Level 4 Archaeology skill and made the capstone ability. The real problems with the skill comes when you can transform Corruption and Displeased Krongs into positive enchantment.

    Also the bug is bad, but that is a separate issue from the skill itself.
  4. killington

    killington Member

    @Incendax: Thats why I wont make a character without it anymore. I just reroll corrup or "displeased" and carry on. I've never encountered the bug that lets me keep adding stats, but its still kind of crazy just cause you can get rid of negatives.
  5. Tacroy

    Tacroy Member

    It's also overpowered because it's on the same skill tree as the ability that lets you recharge anvils. You can double enchant items at every anvil, and then re-roll them until they do what you want, by investing in a single skill tree.

    It's pretty much this self-synergy that makes it overpowered, even without the bug and the converting negatives into positives.
  6. Rikkard

    Rikkard Member

    Gets rid of any downside to corruption.
  7. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @Tacroy I humbly disagree. The self-synergy you describe is -fun-.
  8. Drog

    Drog Member

    @Rikkard there's at least a reasonably high opportunity cost of using it. There's the possibility of getting artifacts with even worse stats plus factor in the time it takes for it to recharge every time (just waiting over and over increases enemy spawns)
  9. Tacroy

    Tacroy Member

    @Incendax I never said that it wasn't :)

    It's just that Archaeology is the only skill tree to self-synergize like that, except for maybe the Beserker skill tree (melee bonus proc on attack, melee bonus proc on hit).
  10. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    @Tacroy I suppose that depends on what you classify as Self-Synergy.

    For example, Fungal Arts allows you to create minions that aid in killing which creates more bodies to use Fungal Arts on. Mathemagic allows you to increase Magic Power to deal greater damage with other spells. Blood Magic buffs you in a way that improves your ability to kill more enemies to regain more mana. Even Necronomiconomics has one spell that damages you, and another spell that mitigates that damage. Most of the weapon skills have a little self-synergy since increased damage adds to your procs.
  11. KittenMaster

    KittenMaster Member

    Self-synergy isn't necessarily a bad thing, just a trait that makes a skill tree a good pick for any type of character, which makes it a good filler skill.
  12. Greg72

    Greg72 Member

    for four points you get a hat that you won't replace until lvl 15+ (if you're melee), you can krong stuff twice (very powerfull) you can re-roll any negative stats until they are gone, including corruption. On top of that you can re-roll an item until it has exactly what you want, for every slot. At best it should have a chance of destroying the item when you re-roll it.
  13. killington

    killington Member

    "At best it should have a chance of destroying the item when you re-roll it. "

    And you just made the entire tree worthless. This is why we should leave this stuff to the devs. =P
  14. Tacroy

    Tacroy Member

    @Incendax I don't know, I just feel like Archaeology's synergy with its own skills is way beyond what any of the other skill trees provide.

    Mathemagic just lets you buff yourself which is fairly common; if the buff itself scaled with your magic power, and thus was stronger on the next casting you might have a point (and it would be pretty Mathemagical :))

    Blood Magic is useless without a way to kill enemies using mana, it requires some sort of attack or other utility spell. If you're a pure melee build with Blood Magic it won't do anything for you.

    Necronomiconomics is just useless without the Mark of Cthon, it's not self-synergy so much as it is not sucking quite as much.

    The various weapon skills don't really self-synergize so much as just plain improve, except for maybe swords and unarmed which give you procs that can activate on a counter-strike, which they also give you a lot of - but that's pretty weak, since Assassination and Deadshot give you even more procs and at lower levels.
  15. stutter

    stutter Member

    It needs some time of limitation on how often you can use it. In the game's current state, having a cooldown isn't enough because you're too safe sitting in a room wasting turns. Either you can only use it x amount of times per level up, or there must be some drawbacks to waiting through turns. A food/hunger system is probably too hard to implement with the current game design. Best bet is to have newly spawn mobs become progressively stronger.

    One of the essences of a roguelike is its randomness. Having a persistent skill that turns randomness into your favor without any drawbacks is too good. That's what makes each game fun and unique. Live long enough through all the bad randomness to hopefully get something good to happen for you. That's why save exploiting before Krong is considered against the spirit of the game.
  16. GeneralSalad

    GeneralSalad Member

    The weapon bug with TTiAW needs to be fixed, perhaps a longer cooldown and swap it with the Krong skill. Other than that it is fine as it is. A game is meant to be fun - if you do not like it do not use it, or use it as you think it should work - of course that requires self control which many people lack :)
  17. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    I have to disagree; I don't find it to be too powerful at all. I've done the old roll and reroll a bit, but I've never found that it adds too many enchantments. And I've gotten just as many negative enchantments as positive ones, so they balance out. Perhaps if one were to sit there, hitting the spacebar and rerolling for a few hours, then yes. But it seems to me that if you want to play that way, then more power to you.

    I love the way the skills in the Archaeology tree synergize. I thought being able to get rid of anvil curses and such was actually part of the whole point of having the skill. It's the payback for not taking a combat oriented skill. And the cooldown time is sufficiently long that I'm not tempted to sit there are reroll for more than a couple of minutes. MAYBE make the cooldown longer, but don't nerf it, please. It's a great skill just the way it is.
  18. Bakyra

    Bakyra Member

    Let me explain it to you, the easy way:
    Every time an item is kronged or corrupted, an "enchantment slot" is added. When you reroll, all those slots are rerolled too. IF ANY of those rerolls is +1 to any kind of magical damage, it will stay in the weapon FOREVER. The bug is so that when you reroll after obtaining those pluses, they are never removed. Thus another chance to get MORE magic damage.

    In terms of the skill itself, it's just way too powerful counter to the corruption of magicky golems. My problem are the golems themselves, not the skill, as they corrupt way too often.
  19. clocknova

    clocknova Member

    I guess I haven't spent that much time rerolling, but that does sound like a bug. But it's a nice, friendly bug. Not like the one that keeps crashing my game and forcing me back to my last autosave.

    I've never lived long enough to get to the corruption monsters, but I think the ability to counter their effects should be retained as one of the benefits of the archaeology skill set.
  20. Derp123

    Derp123 Member

    Against magicky golems and other corrupting monsters you can use another weapon, the damage difference will be negligible anyway. Keep your previous weapon with you for this purpose. Or use one of the many ways to kill them at range if you feel like it.