Discussion in 'Discussions' started by SkyMuffin, Jul 3, 2012.
Oooh, that really my . :c
Pretty much what Althea said.
I'm not a great advocate for this, but I will note: it's very, very easy feeling like "oh, whatever, it's not such a big deal, why do we need language terms/unisex bathrooms/various forums of what may appear to be verbal pedantry" when you're in the position of *not having to deal with it.* And when you don't have to deal with it, it's very hard to see why you may need these things. If somebody wants to dredge up the appropriate links from the Feminism 101 primer, or any other source of commentary that is good, feel free.
I'm going to say this once, because once is the only time I should need to say it:
Gaslamp Games is, and continues to be, a LGBTQ-friendly environment. We have gay, lesbian and transgender players, and we have gay, lesbian, transgender, and bisexual employees, contractors, and business partners. Anybody who has a problem with that, and anybody who makes this environment in any way, shape or form, less supportive or hostile to this aspect of our community, through harassment, hostility, or just plain stupidity, is messing with our fanbase and our staff, and will be on the receiving end of the Banhammer. This should be the norm everywhere, and I'm sorry it isn't, but it damn well will be here. The same goes for racism, and the same goes for sexism.
I have a very low tolerance for this stuff.
Given that there are very, very large and awful pockets of the gaming community where you can't even be a woman who likes video games without being subjected to the worst kinds of abuse and harassment, we're not going to let this happen here. You wanna see the kind of stuff other people have to deal with? Go read this and let your blood boil for a bit.
We are all going to have a good time at Gaslamp Games, we are all going to be very nice and respectful of each others' races, genders, and sexual orientations, and we are all going to make and play some video games and have a good time as a community of people who like to Die, in Dungeons, a lot.
Any questions? No! Good. As you were.
Nicholas, let me just say I love Gaslamp <3
That sounds really, really rude.
This thread got unpleasant real fast. I've been too lenient here, and probably should've warned more people but suffice to say:
It's not about whether or not your behavior is homophobic, it's about treating your fellow humans how you would want to be treated.
If someone was shouting around in real life or posting that they find you disgusting when you eat or do something that is part of your life, I doubt you would be pleased. At best you wouldn't care, but, see, you haven't had to spend your life getting harassed over it.
Also Omni, your denial about the reality of LGBTQ people in America is unwelcome in this thread. The young are bullied and beaten up every day in school, and people of all ages are beaten up often and killed every few weeks. You can say there are nutcases and madmen and you would be right, but it's still the reality.
Basically I have as low of a tolerance as Nicholas does.
Am I the only person who doesn't see how Omni has denial towards the plight of the people in the LGBTQ community?
Keep in mind, sometimes the simplest things escape my grasp, so don't kill me for this.
Hey, at least somebody may get a date out of it.
I don't mean to offend other posters in saying this, but I think Omni isn't attacking the LGBTQ community so much as choosing his words very poorly. I generally like reading Omni's posts even when I don't agree with them because he is very passionate about arguing his point, to the point where he pisses off people he isn't actually arguing against. Granted, the post in question was edited before I read it, so I can't say for sure if that was the case, I'm just going off of what I've seen in... well, 75% of threads in the Discussions section.
Let's stop talking about Omninegro as:
And he edited out the offending post.
... you only want the achievement.
And your digglebabies.
Well you know, even if I got e-rejected it's nice to learn how accepting GLG and its community is.
Guess I'll start speccing in Emomancy, or something...
I completely agree - but tbh one of the main reasons I hear people feeling uncomfortable is because they feel that they are going to be forced into accepting it into their lives - and they find it ick.
It's definitely a "toughen the hell up" kind of thing (edit: on the part of everyone to a certain degree- though by my understanding most homosexual people already are + very much understanding of others, along with many of the nonconventional gender and sexuality roles) - i.e. should a heterosexual man feel grossed out if he gets hit on by a homosexual man? Maybe? How about if a homosexual woman is hit on by a heterosexual man. How about... etc.
We're moving into a new world, language is changing - (gay originally didn't mean happy, it referred to new clothes, which came towards feeling happy which somehow came to mean both a) homosexual and b) lol ur gay.
I personally read "lol ur gay" or "faggot" as "Hey, fuck you" or "Umad?" or any other number of insults. Especially on the internet, people saying that are doubtfully appealing to your personal details, and more likely appealing to the fact that they're about 13 years old and acting it. - which isn't to say I think it's remotely acceptable, I just think it is, like any other attacks on the internet, not worth getting stressed about - life is more important than that.
This post is a little all over the place - I don't know if all I've said is relevant, or if all of it is 'official position' - but it is kind of how I feel. And I guess, hey - I should maybe post a personal anecdote that's kind of more on topic:
Asexuality (sometimes referred to as nonsexuality), in its broadest sense, is the lack of sexual attraction to others or the lack of interest in sex. It may also be considered a lack of a sexual orientation. One commonly cited study published in 2004 placed the prevalence of asexuality at 1%.
If anything, I would say I am slightly bi-romantic, but leaning towards hetero-romantic.
Basically, it's weird. Girls often assume that I'm gay because I fulfill many of those stereotypes. Equally, many guys think I'm straight because I am more interested in women. It leads to some awkward moments where I'm at a table full of guys and some girls walk past and do their little "ooh, he's in" giggle, and then the guys are like, "ooh, you're in"
Equally, I feel privileged to be able to interact with both male, female, LGBT, etc. people knowing full well that I have no sexual feelings that can distract me from acting logically and according to the individual I'm talking with.
Edit: Though I definitely identify as male - though, as with many others, being a girl wouldn't be a huge lifechanger, it'd just increase the proportion of my budget I spend on clothes - dohoho.
Not to undermine your point, Althea, but you'd be surprised at the kind of discrimination people can direct towards a straight, white male.
From personal experience:
I am a straight, white male teenager living in a primarily African-American community. A number of the African-Americans I meet will treat me as if I am a racist, even before I've said anything.
Disregarding the "living in an African-American community" part, several of my male classmates will make comments about me because I am too gentle to fit their "men are big and manly" stereotype. That is sexist, but perhaps not as much as if they were making comments about women.
Some of that might be more in the vein of prejudice rather than personal attacks, but I think it still needs to be considered.
All right, I don't know if this is necessary or not, but screw it I'm posting this anyway.
Yeah, okay, so I consider most sex acts other than the most boringly normal to be disgusting and refuse to perform them or have them performed on me. I honestly can't comprehend why you wouldn't, but I've talked to people who honestly can't comprehend why I would. I guess I'm a prude. Whatever, I don't care.
I regularly eat peanut butter and honey sandwiches. Yeah. You heard me. Peanut butter and honey. People tell me that's disgusting. Screw you, I'm doing it anyway, because...
You are entitled to not give a damn about my opinions. Honestly, I expect it. I've lived out most of my life with none of my opinions ever meaning anything to anyone else, and just quietly going along with whatever other people say because arguing is too much effort and never works. All I ask is that you extend me the same courtesy, and allow me to not give a damn about your opinions either.
As I am a white heterosexual male, you would be correct in saying I don't really know how minorities feel when discriminated against. Wait, no, you wouldn't, you asshole.
See, I'm an introverted nerd, and if you think introverts and nerds don't get bullied in public schools, especially in environments where there's a distinct lack of minorities (like the upper midwest, which is where I've lived for all but three years of my life) then you're honestly kind of stupid.
Despite being just as much a target of discrimination as anyone else, I find it totally okay to be disgusted by other peoples' behavior, and for them to be disgusted by mine, as long as they don't make any attempts to hinder my efforts to perform said behaviors. If they, when asked, give their honest reasons for being disgusted by these things, I view that as a sign of respect; you respect me enough that you're willing to tell me the truth when I ask you questions, which is a damn sight more than I've ever gotten from most of the world.
Oh, I'm sorry, you don't like the fact that I, personally, consider some things you like doing to be disgusting? That's nice, I don't care. Grow up, skippy, there will always be people who dislike things that you like and if you can't get along with the ones who at least have the courtesy to be honest about it and keep their opinions strictly as opinions then I wish you the best of luck in advancing your social revolutions, because you're going to need it.
This and the traditional sexism stem from the same place, though. The gender roles forced on you by society cause you to "not be a man enough" if you deviate from the "norm", just like a woman is not acting "ladylike" if she likes sports or has short hair or whatever. By educating people you can get rid of both at the same time.
I totally get your point, and I'm not going to disagree with you. I think racism (and sexism and so on) are blades that can cut both ways, but generally they cut in one direction - towards the overall minority. That's not to say there is racism against white people, sexism against men (there's plenty of that, often from men too) and so forth, but it happens on a much smaller level than it does in the opposite direction, if you get what I'm saying.
But, again, it's a bit like when discussions about domestic violence towards women happen and someone always says "but domestic violence also happens against men". Yes it does, but as I said in response to ON (I think), it's irrelevant to that discussion. It's not discounting it, it's not brushing it to one side, it's tackling the bigger problem first because by doing so you create the pathways to solve the smaller ones, at least in my own opinion.
Sexism, racism and so on can be caused by prejudice, and that does factor into it somewhat. It's racist to be prejudiced against African American people, it's sexist to judge a woman by her sex/gender not her abilities. You get the idea. Yes, it does cut the other way, but I'd say given the way the African American community has been treated in the past, do you not find there is at least some sort of sense behind a group of African Americans being prejudiced against white people? I'm not justifying their behaviour, I'm merely seeking to give an alternate viewpoint. When we live in an age where an African American person can be segregated, bullied, assaulted, beaten or even killed simply because of their skin colour, is a little defensiveness not, well, logical? Again, just an alternate viewpoint.
Just my opinions, of course.
And so on...
But you're hardly unique in that regard, I think many of us here can testify to being the victim of some form of bullying. However, taking it out on each other is hardly good form. I'm not going to talk about my past because, well, that's my past and it might as well be a different life for me. I'm not going to talk about being closeted because of my mum's attitude and love of a certain right-wing reactionary "newspaper". Why? Because, funnily enough, those are my issues and for me to work through.
But I will say this. If you're a straight white male, in general you have a much better chance at being successful than anyone from any other minority. The Times Top 100 or whatever proves that straight away. If you look at the top people in most major, multinational corporations and 'concerns' (to allow for charities, religions, etc.) you're looking at a majority of straight white males.
If you want to find sexual acts disgusting, or if you can't help it, fine. That's your issue. But when you come onto a public site and proclaim specific things (i.e. "gay sex") to be disgusting then you make your issue public. If you or anyone had just said "I find sex disgusting", no-one would have an issue. But to specify, to say "I find gay sex disgusting" or "I find sex between men disgusting" or whatever, you're making specific comments and targeting those groups with your disgust. You're not constructively making a point, you're not offering even that much of an opinion, you're showing a strong dislike for something that is absolutely no business of your own.
If you have baggage, I think most of us can understand and even sympathise. But to put it more bluntly than Daynab or Nicholas, leave your damn baggage at the door.
Hey, hey. You just completely nailed the issue here. The poll question was "which gender do Dredmor players identify as", not "Do you feel gay sex is disgusting, and if yes, how much on a scale of 1 to 10?"
Nobody has asked this question, and more to the point, you said yourself "give their honest reasons". Something you haven't done, you just said "I do."
I'm sorry you've had a tough life. There are people, maybe even participating in this thread, who are fighting in real life so that people and especially kids can have a better time at it. The thing you call a social revolution, trying to make a better world by education.
I get what you're saying, Althea. I do apologize for the extraneous baggage, my emotions got away from me there. Nonetheless, I'm not entirely certain you get what I'm saying, so I'll just list the points I'm really trying to make here:
1) I believe it's okay to be disgusted by things and say as much as long as you don't take any action to stop these things from happening. In fact, I would argue it's more courteous than just letting your disgust sit there and fester; at least then if in a moment of uncontrollable emotion you forget that what you really don't like is the action and not the person, or make it appear as though you have forgotten, they know why you are being a dick because you have told them in advance.
2) My issue is not that I think male homosexuals having sex is disgusting, it's that they don't appear to have any ways to have sex that aren't either A) things I consider disgusting for reasons I've outlined earlier in the thread or B) things that I don't understand how they could carry enough significance to count as sex. I'll grant you that it's almost certainly quite frustrating to hear "oh no I don't dislike x, I just dislike every method of doing x that exists" but I am trying to be honest here, and I greatly value honesty, and I hold these beliefs no matter who is performing these acts.
Separate names with a comma.