Veganism is Annoying

Discussion in 'Realm of the Diggle Gods' started by Warskull, Dec 21, 2011.

  1. Warskull

    Warskull Member

    Right now, if you don't abuse the thrown weapons bug, veganism is quite annoying. I feel veganism ends up getting violated more because an animal stepped in front of me as I walked. So if I select veganism I have to walk very slowly if animals are around.

    Perhaps WASD should not automatically attack non-hostile animals if you have veganism. Require the player to press the button twice or click to initiate an attack.
  2. blissey1

    blissey1 Member

    There's an option in the pause menu that says "move as combat/use". You should probably unckeck it.

    That being said, friendly animals getting in the way is very annoying. They should be able to do like summons and switch places with you. Then non hostile animals would be an asset instead of a liability.
    LionsDen likes this.
  3. Warskull

    Warskull Member

    You want move as combat/use 95% of the time. It makes the game faster to play. I want to be able to use WASD to attack and open doors, it is convenient. Walking into Brax doesn't attack him it talks to him. The default behavior for WASD into non-hostile enemies should be something other than attack.
  4. zellking

    zellking Member

    I agree with making non-hostile animals switching place business.
    I never had much of a problem though, but its quite a decent idea
  5. SkyMuffin

    SkyMuffin Member

    Spells and crossbows also work against animals.

    One thing you can do is hold down the movement key instead of just pressing it. The game will automatically stop you when you encounter an enemy.
  6. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    I agree. I even suggested that all animals should move like pets to a Killer Vegan. That is, when you walk at one, they swap places with you like your pet does. It's really annoying trying to walk through a whole room of animals. They are constantly in your way!
  7. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Another thing to do would be to make it so that the animals do not grant any XP when killed.
    Exile likes this.
  8. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    That would be a huge nerf to the skill, and it's already suffering. XP is a very important resource in the game.
  9. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Killer Vegan needs to be nerfed. It's pretty overpowered.
    Exile likes this.
  10. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    I disagree. The best thing it gives you is +24 health and +5 Righteous Damage, and those things aren't that great for as many points as you have to use to get them.

    The charm makes a pretty mediocre pet. It doesn't follow normal pet rules of taking an enemy's focus off of you, and half the time they end up chasing some other animal around the dungeon instead of fighting the thing that's attacking you, anyway. So the fact that you can charm a Muscle Diggle is not as good as it seems.

    You can't eat any of the good food in the game because none of it's vegan friendly, yet it's a warrior skill, which is the class that needs food the most.

    Animals don't attack you, which is great, but you need their XP, so you need to kill them anyways, and unless you're a mage, that means wasting a lot of thrown weapons and bolts because you aren't allowed to melee them.

    I don't think anything this skill has qualifies it as overpowered. Even if you successfully argue that it's overpowered, taking away half of your potential XP in the game would be such an incredibly large nerf, that this skill would need to be at least twice as good as any other skill in the game, and it's clearly not. You would be so under-leveled, that you'd be handicapped for the entire game.
  11. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Counting deriveds, it's actually +33:life:,.+2:life_regen:, +3:melee_power:, 4:dodge:, 1:block:, 1:counter: worth of extra defenses. This is ignoring the stun proc which prevents opponents from attacking and thus stops a lot of damage getting through to you. It also ends up meaning you deal more than just 5:dmg_righteous:, the blinding flash proc can activate more than once a turn even. On top of that, you get free fruit from killing vegetables, which is worth a fair bit of :life: and :mana:. You also get bonus XP from killing vegetables. Finally, you get to dispel all status conditions for free once every 120 turns, meaning you can eat as many deep omelettes as you want. It's not balanced. Losing the XP from animals would be quite a fair tradeoff, especially if in the bargain you're able to displace animals so that they no longer annoy you all the time. In the bargain, it'll also be nice to be robbed of the ability to melee animals, so that you can't kill them in melee and can't get debuffed from doing so, and that inconsequentia will never require you to kill animals.

    In fact it's hands down one of the best skills in the game, on par with Fungal Arts, Promethean, and Burgulary.
    Exile likes this.
  12. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    I totally agree that Killer Vegan is one of the most powerful skill trees in the game. What makes it balanced is not any mechanical drawback - but rather the sort of "tred lightly" issues which can be so frustrating. In the same way crafting is balanced because it clogs up your inventory and takes away a lot of time.
  13. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    Except for the HP, those stats are very tiny. The 33 is really nice, but it's not game changing to a warrior. Not so much that it's worth giving up everything else the skill currently makes you give up along with the loss of all the XP you are suggesting.

    It's a very meager 8% chance that it even procs, and when it does it's only a 33% that each monster gets stunned. That's a 2.6% chance that any monster in it's radius is stunned when each attacks. At most that's a 10% chance that any one monster is stunned when you are surrounded by 4 monsters. I'll grant you that that is helpful, but it's like a random heal you can't control.

    Other than the stun it deals a modest 4 damage that scales with Magic Power, which you will have very little of as a melee character.

    Fruit is the worst of the foods. It's not even worth mentioning. At best it's free lutefisk. And you're kinda stuck with it, because anything else you eat debuffs you. Food is a weak source of healing to begin with. Food that only heals 5HP is the worst.

    Yes, a non-scaling 8 bonus XP on a narrow taxa. It's negligible past the first couple of levels. Whereas the XP from animals scales throughout the game.

    Other skills like Emomancy can do that whenever they want. A 120 turn cooldown is extremely long. Sure, you can eat a couple of non-vegan foods when it's off of cooldown, then pop the spell, negating the debuffs, but then it's not there when you get cursed by a spell or trap. And even delaying eating food until it's off of cooldown can be dangerous.

    I'll just have to respectfully disagree with this assessment. Players take skills like Archaeology a large part because it gives bonus XP, because it's such a valuable resource. By not being able to get any XP from animals you are losing out on a lot. Particularly on early dungeon levels, like level 1, and again on later levels once the high level diggles begin appearing.

    The only truly great benefits it has going for it are the +33 health (and +2 regen), and the fact that animals don't fight back, meaning you are free to slaughter them with spells and Ranged attacks. I think you are greatly underestimating the value of those experience points.

    It may be pretty good for a melee skill, but it's not even the best one, and it's not nearly as powerful as skills like Promethian Magic or Fungal Arts, which are just ridiculously good. The damage output and pet quality from Promethian is off the charts. The healing, damage buffs, invisibility and lifesteal you get from mushrooms dwarfs what you get from Killer Vegan, and you get reliable pets! Burglary is sometimes considered a must-have skill in part because it grants you free XP from all the lockpicking you do, and even that is nothing compared to the XP you'd be giving up if you could never get any from an animal.

    Killer Vegan is not in the same class as those skills, and it's certainly not worth losing all animal XP for it.

    I think the best argument for the skill is to use it for otherwise pure wizards who will get the most benefit out of the 33 health, and who can easily kill all the animals for XP at their leisure. The Blinding Flash will actually do some damage, and might save you in a pinch with the stun. However, there's a long list of wizard skills I'd much rather have even then.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  14. mining

    mining Member

    I'm going to put it out there that Killer Vegan + Blood Magic + Necro + Fungal Arts + Alchemy + Dual Wielding + Psionics is quite a strong combination - fruit from KV + Alchemy's Fruitful staff will keep you mana'd up, and the healing from Psionics, Fungal and Alchemy's cheap health potions is incredible. Also, you don't care about righteous resistance because of how strong being able to ignore all fish is.
  15. King Yoshi

    King Yoshi Member

    You realize that once you clear a level, you should effectively be strong enough to go back and kill ALL of those animals that ignored you for the XP, and they don't attack back.

    The fact that animals, which make up quite a large chunk of the dungeon's population, can't hurt you, is a HUGE boon, and arguably the main draw of taking the skill.
  16. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    I agree, and would you take the skill if you could never go back and get all that XP?
  17. King Yoshi

    King Yoshi Member

    There are plenty of ways to get XP, to be fair, and killing monsters is a rather minor way. One could easily take archeology or burglary to offset the losses.
  18. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    Minor way? Killing things is the main way XP is earned.
  19. King Yoshi

    King Yoshi Member

    I suppose I use the Archaeology skill a bit too much, then =P

    Still seems like a fine tradeoff to not get XP for animals in return for some anti-annoyance tweaks.
  20. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    [quote="King Yoshi, post: 32568, member: 4932"Still seems like a fine tradeoff to not get XP for animals in return for some anti-annoyance tweaks.[/quote]

    Not to me. I think it would ruin the skill. Either that or force people to take alternate XP skills like archaeology, which I don't think is a wise thing to do.

    If anything it overpowered it's the XP gains from Archaeology, but that and re-rolling artifacts is all it really has going for it, so it would need some love if the XP amount gets reduced.