Vampirism needs to be reworked.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Ruigi, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    First of all, Vampirism attack should only proc when creatures of the appropriate taxonomy are attacked.

    Second, i think that removing passive health regen from vampires is too much. It's hard enough as it is for vampires to heal themselves, and as the player ventures lower into the dungeon, the damage bonus from vampirism ceases to compensate for the inability to heal easily.

    I think that vampires should be able to benefit from passive health regeneration, but should still not gain any benefit from using food.
  2. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    I feel like an easy way to make vampire decent again is to make the heal drain unresistible again (now it's dependent on piercing) and I disagree about appropriate taxonomy only because my suggestion is to keep health regen as it is. Then make it scale slightly per level so it remains useful.
  3. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I agree with Daynab. Other than that, it would be good if there actually was more than one class skill tree that had innate healing abilities that do not require you to attack enemies, but then again, it would mean that you'd have to take one of these classes when choosing vampirism as well (that being said, I'm pretty sure that alchemists can create healing potions that vampires can use, but I might be mistaken as I never played a vampire).
    Perhaps getting some of the health regeneration back after spending a few points on vampirism would help alleviate that issue, though - that way it wouldn't work from the beginning, but you'll get a way to heal yourself later.
  4. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    I agree, but maybe instead of just having natural :life_regen:, it simply won't be restricted as much. Maybe all equipment :life_regen: could be halved (along with any passives from a skill tree that buffs :life_regen:, other than Vampirism), but instead you would get most of your :life_regen: by attacking, drinking blood/ eating corpses, making food out of pure meat or making some kind of special blood drink similar to the Blood-Mage's Haematic Phylactery. To balance this.. maybe Vampires would be able to break the one :life: per turn rule, so that if they get enough :life_regen: (something like 15 :life_regen: on normal, and 25 :life_regen: on hard mode) it might actually give two, three or more :life: each turn.
  5. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    what's wrong with vampirism only proccing when creatures of the appropriate taxonomy are hit?
    Vampirism attack does nothing against Vegetables, Undead or Constructs. It should only proc when a vampire character attacks Animals, Others or Demons.
  6. SkyMuffin

    SkyMuffin Member

    I think the problem is partly the non-scaling lifesteal, but mostly because eating corpses is way too weak. On Rogue difficulty, 4hp is nothing-- especially not when it takes a turn to use.

    The use of a turn is the biggest drawback by far. Couldn't we have like, magical vampires that just suck up corpses automatically or something?
  7. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    I thought :life_steal: scales with damage done.. either that or the damage done by the damage effect which scales with :magic_power: (wiki says almost everything scales with :magic_power:..). I agree that it should be more effective against animals (and other proper targets) though.. Maybe instead of doing nothing versus vegetables, constructs or the undead, it would simply steal nothing (or very little compared to proper targets), but still have a small damage boost? Afterall, you are a Vampire, and should be physically stronger. I still think that Vampires should be able to do something with pure meat though, that way it would work well with the Big Game Hunter tree.
  8. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I'm not sure what y'all are talking about, but if you look Vampirism right now in the XML, it drains 2 points vs. Animals and 1 point each vs. Demons and Other, and then heals 1 HP without draining. So it already doesn't do anything to Constructs, etc.
  9. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I think they meant that the amount of health gained through vampiric drain should somehow scale with one's attack power, as later in the game the creatures start hitting much stronger but the drain stays the same, so without some way to provide an alternative way of healing (which now is pretty much narrowed down to "choose fungal arts as one of your skill trees") it's impossible to get enough health back through attacking. And I agree with that, as with only normal attacks they might stand a chance to do that, but with rate of critical hits and counter hits going through the roof later it's literally impossible to survive on a fixed health gain that only works in combat.
  10. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Couldn't that be most easily accomplished by making in an 'attack="1"' spell?
  11. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    That's not the point, Essence. The point is, right now there's not nearly enough ways to actually get healing effects that aren't either food or natural regeneration (none of which are accessible to vampires) that don't come from fungal arts. That means vampires have to heal through combat, and while damage, critical rate, and counter rate of monsters goes up, healing ability of vampiric drain does not.

    And yes, I know it's possible to use a vampire centred on ranged weapons well as that won't require as much healing, but the point is, right now it's almost impossible (outside of the lowest difficulty) for vampires without fungal arts to actually get enough healing in late game to survive. And that is why we are discussing it.
  12. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I think you're misunderstanding. If the vampiric attack were an "attack=1" skill, it adds Melee Power to it's damage, and all of it's damage is Drain. So that would accomplish the goal of scaling drain, yes?
  13. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Oh, that would (I'm still not that good with some things in Dredmor's code, I have to admit). But unless there was a way to decrease the scaling factor, it would become overpowered instead. Gotta love this...
  14. jadkni

    jadkni Member

    Backing up a bit, it makes thematic sense for vampires to start regenerating fast by attacking and draining blood (to me, anyway). Turning the first skill into a scaling attack that gives you health regeneration buffs and the corpse eating attack into a straight-up replacement for food would do wonders.
  15. tehrei

    tehrei Member

    Vampirism doesn't provide anything that you can't get from fungal arts. Also, fungal arts doesn't have any negative effects such as the no-regen of vampirism. You could also get lifesteal from Necro, granted that it would come with some drawbacks -- but those should be bearable for most characters by the time you get it (and still not as severe as what vampirism gets you). The way I see it there really isn't any reason to take vampirism, unless you want a challenge or something (I'm hardly a pro at DoD though so I could be wrong there).

    Essence's suggestion sounds reasonable to me, but it would obviously need to be tested before one could be sure of that... I wouldn't mind too too much if it stays the way it is though, a "bad" skill or two makes the wins using them even more impressive :p
  16. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    I'm glad someone agrees with me.. if vampires got :life_regen: for attacking, instead of just :life: / :life_steal: it would make Vampirism seem more useful (and make alot more sense) to me; Because isn't there a fungi that gives the same effect (or a very similar effect) without the draw backs for 20 turns? A larger :life_regen: per hit (might also scale with level/ stats), that can break the one :life: per turn rule, and making :life_steal: scale better at higher levels would seem pretty balanced to me. This would also help seperate Vampirism from other similar effects of :life_steal:, and make it potentially better/ more useful.

    Even a new healing effect could be added to the attack, instead of just a raw :life_regen: gain.. It would heal a certain amount of :life: every turn would work just as well. It could last for long enough (probably 5-20 turns, at 2-5 :life: per turn, although both of those should scale) to heal after the battle, without being forced to use valuable fungi/ turns/ mana to top off your health after every fight. Although I am not sure how this effect should stack..

    After some more thought.. I was thinking if it would be balanced to replace the corpse eating effect, with a minor heal spell that is a bit less :mana: efficient than other healing spells, to help cover one of Vampirism's main weaknesses: There are very few ways to heal outside of combat. It could scale with :magic_power:, level, and/ or a percentage of your maximum health. Perhaps it would only just temporarily increase :life_regen:, but provide a very small :life: effect, I still think requiring a corpse is a bit odd.. It could be added to the requirements of the spell, if it is needed for balancing.

    Edits are in blue
    tehrei likes this.
  17. tehrei

    tehrei Member

    I really like this idea. It would definitely make vampirism more unique, while also making it a useful skill that encourages a somewhat different playstyle... I'm not really qualified to make any statements on balance, but I think that this could potentially make it simply into a good skill, without it being overpowered. What I mean by that is basically that vampirism has gone from OP to UP and vice versa more or less every time it's been patched. Obviously a middle-ground between those two would be preferable.

    edit: wow, I proofread my posts and still manage a minimum of 3 spelling errors, missing words and so on... how is this possible? brb coffee
  18. JunkRamen

    JunkRamen Member

    The issue I see with Vampirism is that it's a tree about self healing... but requires another tree with with self healing to work at all. Why waste a skill slot gimping yourself with Vampirism when you can just take Fleshsmithing or Psyonics alone and handle much of your healing problems there?

    Some changes with the expansion don't help. IIRC Vampirism used to work on everything. Restricting the appropriate mobs for it to work on thematically makes sense but in game means you'll find yourself dying without your lucky room of Animal spawns... and lord help you if you crit them to death. Furthermore, food-based healing got significantly stronger with how easy it is to make Cheese Omelets.

    Another problem with Vampirism is one that it's had for a long time now... scaling with Magic Power. Wearing armor gimps your self healing, but taking it off or wearing mage armor gimps your mitigation. Either way, you're screwed.

    Vampirism needs a lot of work before it becomes a decent skill tree again and any single suggestion wouldn't be enough to fix it. I personally feel like it could benefit well from a skill that has a significant cooldown but greatly increases the amount of health restored from attacking.
  19. Grymling

    Grymling Member

    Perhaps add well fed status depending on consumed victime, so you get some kind of metabolism-regen.

    And while at it, give the Vampire a chance to thrall someone that can be fed and feed on:D
  20. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Everytime you post I always read and think "huh, I don't remember posting this" :D

    I like that idea though. It's kinda like in Crawl where drinking a lot of blood makes you full, but here it would give you buffs.
    OmniNegro and Kazeto like this.