The Essence and Lujo Grand Item Rebalance Discussion Thread. Bergstrom!

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, Oct 30, 2012.

  1. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    The trick here is to not spoil what the bonus is for each set. Then people will wear all manner of sets as they manage to get them just to see what they do.

    However I too am slightly against class specific themes to equipment. I favor general benefit themes like :life: and :life_regen: and :burliness: over "general warrior" themes. Same for :nimbleness: and :dodge: over rogue and :magic_power: and :mana: over mage. That way it can benefit anyone.

    Set boni should be something more substantial than a simple numeral modifier though. More like this example:
    While wearing a mageish set of whatever gear, casting a spell of any sort costs one :mana: less.

    Or this example warriorish set boni:
    Every time you kill a monster, you get an invisible buff for 15 turns that boosts :melee_power: by 5 for ten turns and stacks to way past crazy. (If you kill enough fast enough, it gets easier to keep crazy :melee_power: boosts.

    I could keep spitting these out, but I think my point is made.
  2. lujo86

    lujo86 Member

    Eh, I agree with what OneMoreNameless is saying, which is why I said "just a smidgeon" before.

    The problem is that ATM there is a bit of lack of interesting choices in any regard, and people can't really make a choice between wearing this or that interesting item, because too many items just aren't interesting :D

    And we don't have to spell it out, just determine what each likes and doesn't like first and scatter it about it an interesting way. If I'd use "set" properties for anythign I'd use it for penalties, which is why the "this works better with swords/daggers" thing. As Bergstrom pointed out with elemental resists, the penalties are far more interesting than just piling plusses on people.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  3. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    When considering stats and builds, encrusting has totally changed the game. I will often find a 'throwaway' item that would be good with a ton of stats piled on it, that I wont mind if it gets really corrupted as I plan to switch it out later. You might want to consider encrusts when redoing the items. Heck Even items that have negative :encrustment_instability: to start with. I realize that people can't see this stat on items yet, but you could put in the comments that it resists instability (or likes to be caked up with crusts).

    Or consider items that have non-convential crusts so that you could crust more coneventional ones on them.
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  4. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Yeah, my effort in this thread is currently near zero as the weapon revamps near completion. I'll be back shortly. :)
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  5. lujo86

    lujo86 Member

    I'm waiting on those, and the next patch too, don't worry.

    And the negative/positive encrusts are somethign I'd deffinitely love, gotta sew how well supported modding wise that is.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  6. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I think that when it comes to item sets, these should be made out of items that weren't exactly the same but still in-theme (so a whole set of plate armour would not be an "item set", but a top hat and a formal suit could be), and they should give bonuses that weren't an outright increase (a set that emphasizes bonuses to AA could decrease AA when completed but give you toxic resistance, for example). For bonus points, making it so that the whole set has 5~6 items but the set bonus maxes out when you have 3 of them equipped or so makes it easier to collect it; of course it's not going to stay very useful, but it could still be a nice extension to things like "Toque of Canada" and other situational equips - stuff that isn't required and isn't always the best, but might be better than things with one or two more stars if used in specific situations.

    Of course, such a thing can't really happen if it's about rebalancing already-existing items (especially if we want those item sets not to require "this item and this item" but rather "two items out of a list of a few more", the amount of spells required for the trigger web quickly adds up if you go over 2~3 items in a set), but that is my opinion about this particular thing.

    PS. I'll add more text as time goes, I'm sort of busy until the day after tomorrow but maybe I'll be able to find some time.
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  7. Shreeper

    Shreeper Member

    Umm, did this project die, or?
  8. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Not really. It is being incorporated into Essence's rebalance, the thread was separated from the other thread because this one is about items and the other one about skill trees.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  9. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks It's going to be it's own project, but it got put in the queue behind Gangnam Style, the weapon revamp, and the ESCRII. Now that those things are approaching completion (Gangnam Style needs more work and the ESCRII will probably have a dozen revisions before I consider it released), this will get more attention. :)
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  10. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Whichever way it happens, the point is that you are working on it.

    ...I'm tired, someone kill me.
  11. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    See officer? He actually asked me to put him out of his misery. It is justifiable! It was an errand of mercy. What do you mean it was not mercy because I used a flaming woodchipper? Well maybe your definition of mercy is different from mine. What is with the cuffs? Let me go!
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  12. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    ...sometimes, Omni, you scare me.
  13. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I try. :D
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  14. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    BTW... Just to point out I am insane...

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  15. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I know it's off the topic, but you made my day Omni.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  16. Wyrmcraft

    Wyrmcraft Member

    Well, just in case this gets looked at I'll throw in my two or three cents, a few of these have been addressed but I last looked at this like a week ago and I forget everything that was said so please excuse anything I've missed.

    1: Only Real Endgame Equipment is Clockwork
    The issue with this is of course that in order to achieve it you need Smithing and Tinkering, well need is not the right word but you know what I mean. Clockwork gear is SO good and there are very few options if honestly zero options for warriors and rogues to use, one of the main goals should be (and is from what I've seen) to add in more end game armor which in my opinion is the right direction.

    2: Rogues and Wizards have no good end game equipment
    You've discussed this of course, however spellpower does not scale as well as pure damage, and Wizard robes/equipment does not give nearly as useful stats as Warrior armor does. Obviously wizard robes are hard to design, as are Rogue equipment as you can't just stack resistances and armor absorption on them like you can for Warrior armor and call it a day. It's the reason why dodge, counter, and to a lesser extent block are a touch harder to get anyway, when you hit 100 you become very hard to kill. Editing that is likely impossible, as that is just the way the engine works, and so you have to be careful with putting too much dodge or counter on anything...but that is exactly what late game rogues gear likes...Dodge, counter, nimbleness, and caddishness. I've not touched Wizards too much late game however from what I recall their equipment choice is as limited as a Rogues is.

    3: More things need to be craftable right away, or craftable in general to balance the crafting trees
    Let's be honest here, Tinkering and Alchemy are eons better than smithig which is much much better than Wandcrafting. Alchemy makes you invincible, Tinkering provides you with enough trap sight to get to dungeon level 10 along with infinite ammo and crossbows out the wazoo...the reason Smithing is good is because when combined with Tinkering you can make the best armor in the game, and for the later game items and of course the silver shields. Wandcrafting is useless, just flat out. So, our issue is to better balance what can make what, and alter what can be built when, or what resource makes them. For example, make health potions require more points in alchemy or use different ingrediants to try to balance out alchemy. Put more late game equipment in Alchemy or give Alchemy and Wandcrafting some kind of synergy so that you can make better late game wizard gear...have Tinkering and Alchemy be used to make end game rogue gear, something that.

    4: Maybe it's just me but...
    There are not enough polearms in the game, and they certainly do not have enough late game stats on them by the end of the game. I know they are more defensive than offensive but pretty much every other weapon in the game has at least like 45 damage, if I recall correctly the best spear in the game has around 35 or 40, which is insane.

    5: Zorkmid Adjustments
    Prices need to change on a few items, these have been stated

    6: Can we make wands useful somehow?
    Is there any way to make them useful, anything we can do to the items? Could we find a way to make them scale, even if it's an ability in the Wandcrafting tree? Wands could be so useful if they were just well...useful.

    7: Encrusting should be looked at some point
    Way later in the project though
  17. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Yeah, it's about time for me to get back to this now that CES and ECSRII are pretty much solid. Thanks for the reboot, Wyrmcraft. :)
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  18. Wyrmcraft

    Wyrmcraft Member

    No problem Essence, keep up the good work.;)
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  19. Nacho

    Nacho Member

    6 is already being addressed (or has been addressed and waits to be implemented) here. Are any of the other issues already addressed by using mods? If you used the More Dred (item pack), how many would still remain?
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  20. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    I have been playing at TON of wandcrafting lately (since my vampire file died and is unrecoverable, even the autosave) and plan on making up a comprehensive thread breaking down a few things where wandcrafting really does shine and isn't getting the credit it deserves.

    However that is not to say that the tree is 'good'. Far from it. The plan rebalance on wand scaling is a good start, but more fundamentals in terms of craftability of current wands is in order, and the dependency of crafting trees in general on things like perception to even function should be part of the discussion.
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