Skill tree balancing

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Wi§p, Jan 6, 2012.

  1. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    Hi, I just posted a balance discussion on some mage and rogue mechanics, but I thought up some suggestions that I feel deserve a separate thread for individual skill tree balancing. With a few searches I didn't find any individual skill tree's balance being discussed in this manner.. Anyways:

    Warning, there is alot of text below, I will probably try to edit it later to make it easier to navigate, possibly by using spoilers if I can ever figure out how to use those..

    First off is the Demonologist tree: I feel that alot of the skills are very contradictory. It seems like the only tree that offers :resist_righteous: (righteous resistance), but after the third level immediately takes it away. Also, 3 skills seem very useful for mages (Turn Demon, Abyssal Fire stacks with :magic_power:, and Infernal Contract makes minions to tank damage, something a warrior does not need); while the other 3 or 4 skills seems to be meant for warriors (Fervor of the Flagellant is basically a berserker rage effect, Celestial Circle covers warrior's main weakness; a lack of resistances, Demon Form buffs melee alot and adds resistances, and it seems like the Heck Forge is more useful for warriors (and could certainly use a buff for an end tree skill), since I have never been corrupted as a mage).

    I think that the Demonoligist tree should be split up into two separate trees, one for warriors, with the three main warrior skills, new skills (I was thinking the entire tree should be priest/ monk/ holy themed, and buff resistances, and add range skills not affected by :magic_power:), Turn Demon could be changed to stack with a different stat as well, each tree level would increase :resist_righteous:, and Demon Form could be changed to a monk/ priest/ holy themed skill. Should probable also add some damage bonus's versus demons. The other tree would probably be demon/ lich/ evil themed, and would have skills that help mages (or at least stack with :magic_power:) , along with the mage type skills from the Demonoligist tree. This tree would decrease :resist_righteous:, but increase :resist_nercomatic: and / or :resist_conflagratory: making it more useful for Necro/ Pyromancers.

    Even if the tree isn't split, I still feel that it has alot of problems, the last few skills do not seem very strong, and in my opinion the first three skills seem more useful, especially since you avoid the :dmg_righteous: weakness. That is one of the main reasons why I suggested the tree be split after all.. Anyways, I believe the Demonologist tree's last few skills could certainly use a buff.

    This would remove this trees inconsistencies, because for most characters half of the skills seem to be almost useless, while the other half seem very desirable..

    The second skill tree that I feel is pointless is Viking Wizardry: For mages it seems underpowered, because a mage should never be in melee range anyways, and other magic types feel stronger; For warriors it also seems underpowered since most of the skills stack with :magic_power: , and only the 3 buffs seem desirable. I think this tree should be changed to a buff tree, that has a few passives that would help warriors in combat, with maybe a few ranged skills that don't stack with :magic_power: . Also, most of the better warrior equipment in the game seems to debuff :magic_power:, discouraging warriors from using this tree even more.

    This would make more sense, since this tree seems to be aimed mainly at warriors in the first place, and as a mage I see no reason to ever want melee buffs.

    I only have minor complaints for the next one, the Blood-Mage tree: Only the first skill in the Blood-Mage tree seems worth getting (for a mage), since it is easy enough to max out :mana_regen: and Spirit-Steal/ Soul-Steal offer only a slight boost of :magic_power: / :sagacity: , at the cost of an extra 2-4 :resist_righteous: weakness. I think that all the Blood-Mage skills should be balanced to be either more useful for mages, or the last four skills should be changed so that they are more useful for warrior or rogue types.

    I might be wrong about the second skill: Vital Siphon (which has a 30%, and an additional 25% chance per hit to get more :mana:) , I thought that it only activated on melee hits, but both the in-game, and wiki description aren't clear, so it might activate on magic hits as well; Although even if it activates on magic hits, I still don't think it is worth a skill point..

    Originally the Blood-Mage tree mainly increased how much :mana: you got per kill, I never thought that the extra :magic_power: / :sagacity: was all that useful myself..

    My last suggestion is for making the Swords, Axes, Maces, and Stave trees to seem more unique. They all offer around 17 :edr: total, around 4-6 extra damage, and a few points in either :counter: or :crit: . The power attacks are all different, but I would like to see each one get a better unique boost. Maybe one could get 10 or more :edr: and/ or enemy :block: / :counter: reduction (I am not sure if there is currently a stat for this..) than the others, another could get a larger :counter: boost, one might drastically increase :dodge: / :block: / resistances / enemy :crit: reduction , and the last one might get the highest damage buff.

    I know they already have similar differences, I would just like to see them buffed a little bit. Since currently the boosts seem a bit too similar for my liking.. I have never noticed a difference when using the different weapons to be honest, other than the power attacks.

    My last comment is that :life_regen: should be added to an existing skill tree, making it similar to the Ley-Lines tree; Since it seems odd that :mana_regen: can be buffed easily through skills, but getting :life_regen: requires you to take damage, or use an ability with a cooldown, with the other two melee defensive trees, Shield-Bearer and Master-of-Arms. Perhaps this suggestion should be ignored, because of Vegan :life_regen:, but I would still like to see it added to the Shield-Bearer or Master-of-Arms trees as well..

    Also, I would like to know if specializing in any two weapon trees would stack if you are Dual-Wielding, and if the Unarmed tree affects held weapons or crossbows, or other non-Unarmed combat, because if it doesn't.. then Tri-wielding sounds nice.

    Btw; I mainly use mages or warriors type characters, so I can't really offer any insight on any rogue mechanics.

    These are just my thoughts on the matter, I hope they might point out some weaknesses and inconsistencies in the current skill trees, so that they might be buffed and/ or improved ! If you can think of any other ways to balance the current trees then please post them, and I would like to see other tree's weaknesses and inconsistencies pointed out, so that the game might be balanced further !

    Edits are blue.
     
  2. Android089

    Android089 Member

    Vegan gives you 3 (I think) extra :life_regen:. Along with some other passive buffs.
     
  3. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    I forgot about the Vegan :life_regen:, thanks for pointing that out! I also edited the opening post a few times, most of the edits should be blue to make them easier to see, although slight re-wording isn't colored.
     
  4. JunkRamen

    JunkRamen Member

    I don't think Demonologist suffers from the problems you describe. Shove and summons are useful for any class, and the puny magic damage scaling on Abyssal Fire isn't nearly enough to make it a "mage skill." The resistance is contradictory because that is the theme of the tree; you start off as a demon hunter but somewhere along the way decide you want their powers and end up signing a deal with the devil for them, hence the shift from demon killing abilities to becoming a demon. "No, you are the demons" defines it well.

    Even if the tree did lack a clear cut "warrior" or "mage" role, I don't see a problem with a tree that benefits both archetypes or even encourages hybridization. Astrology and Viking Wizardry arguably do that already. One could perhaps argue that case for Vampirism and Assassination too, if they weren't so weak. Remember that DoD isn't a game about "classes," just skill sets.

    IMO the real problem with the tree is that the later skills aren't that strong. Celestial Circle is worth building your character around, Demon Form can easily get your character killed and Flames of the Heckforge has proven to be quite weak given the cost.

    Also, keep in mind that Demonologist is a rogue tree.

    I haven't been able to make a Viking Wizardry character work either, because warriors need a magic tree with healing and the buffs from VW take away from healing mana. Considering the gimped mana regeneration a warrior type would get from wearing armor and the lack of skill slots for things like Blood Magic/Leywalking it's hard to make a character that can use VW without being a complete glass cannon. Need to experiment more, though.
     
  5. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    You are probably right about the Demonologist skill tree, but I have disliked it from the start for multiple reasons.. so I am a bit biased on the matter. I would still like to see it split, just because I would really like to see a full "Priest" style skill tree with lots of defensive abilities, instead of just the Celestial Circle. Maybe the Demonologist tree could be made more aggressive or offensive instead of being changed to a pure mage role. Admittedly I haven't play tested too much of the tree, and I don't tend to get more than the first 3 abilities when I do, because the next few abilities don't seem to make up for the :resist_righteous: weakness they give you..

    I am not really sure how Viking Wizardry should be buffed/ changed. From my experience, the attacking magics tend to be useless, and it can be hard to get enough :mana: to really use the buffs for long periods of time as a warrior. I might try out a warrior/ mage hybrid build later with a focus on :mana_regen: and lighter armor, since that's what it currently seems to be designed for.

    Also, I tend to try to specialize heavily into one style of combat, and build all my skills around that.. So I often end up with mainly mage, or warrior skills, with the rest of the skills aimed at survivability.

    Even if the Demonologist tree wasn't split, I still think it should be changed.. The last few skills do not seem worth the weakness it gives you, and apparently Demon Form is suicidal, while the Heck Forge could certainly be more useful for an end tree skill. I have no opinion on the summoning, since I try to avoid summons whenever reasonable.. I would really like to see more "powerful" skills, since the tree itself even implies that you are gaining power at a huge cost. Necromancy has similar mechanics: Its really powerful, but can be very risky and potentially dangerous.

    Edits are blue
     
  6. JunkRamen

    JunkRamen Member

    This game already has some defensive magic trees: Astrology and Psionics.
     
  7. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    I meant a defensive non-magic ability tree.. perhaps with a few new unique skills similar to the Celestial Circle? Instead of costing :mana:, they could have other drawbacks, like not being able to move.. and would be different than the two defensive armor trees, since these could be focused on heavier resistance/ defense but with higher drawbacks; Maybe one of the passives/ abilities could gain resistances when on lower health, and lose resistances when near max.

    I suppose the devs will probably change it any way they like though (which is fine with me), I just hope that a resistance/ defense themed Priest tree inspires them enough to make something interesting.

    Edit: I was thinking it could be similar to the Necromancy tree, which has really high damage, in exchange for negative effects that can be resisted.. The Priest tree could have similar negative effects, but require :resist_righteous: instead. For lore reasons, I guess you could say :resist_righteous: is faith, and you need higher faith to use high Priest abilities safely.
     
  8. Pokenoob

    Pokenoob Member

    I really think that there should be a skill that adds :life_regen: as well max life like ley walker. That would be a good mod is someone made it. I would always use it. We need to some modders! Vegan has wayyy too many downsides to even consider...
     
  9. JunkRamen

    JunkRamen Member

    I actually think it would be better for the armor trees to be reworked or looked at. They're pretty boring and don't really add much to play style.
     
  10. Pokenoob

    Pokenoob Member

    yeah i guess your right, but how creative can you get with them?
     
  11. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    Shield Bearer probably needs a buff, since Dual Wielding seems to add alot more potential damage; and I am not sure if the slightly higher :block: is even better than DW's :counter:. Maybe if there were abilities that could guarantee blocks, like with Swash Buckling's 75 :counter:, but gave a few more turns/ chances to get the :block: boost. Maybe the shield's combat activated abilities could stun in retaliation as well?

    I just don't really find Master of Arms extra :life_regen: useful since it is on an ability that only activates in combat, if the :life_regen: was a passive.. I could see myself wanting to use it more. Then some of the abilities that had to activate in combat could give resistances to whatever damage you took to make it activate, and a small heal.

    Would this make these more interesting; Or am I completely on the wrong track?
     
  12. Pokenoob

    Pokenoob Member

    That does make sence, I use both of those skilles amd the go very well together. IT does make more sence with MAster Sheild bearer though. I think you are on the right track. There needs to be more :life_regen: and more creativity with skills. I have a lot of trouble playing on easy with permadeath off. (Yeah I know...) I've put 40+ hours in the game too. I got to level 9 though. But I'm getting off track now.
     
  13. JunkRamen

    JunkRamen Member

    AFAIK you don't need a Shield for the passives from Shield Bearer to be active.

    My problem with Shield Bearer and Master of Arms is that they're both very similar. A lot of defensive passives, some defensive procs, and some "cast me before a fight!" defensive actives. Both of them do the same thing, neither of them really change the way you play except taking hits better, and neither of them necessarily require you to be wearing armor or using a shield to gain their benefits.

    I would leave one as the "defensive simple procs and passives" tree: probably Master of Arms. Shield Bearer needs to be changed to rely more heavily on shields and provide something to make using a shield actually appealing over dual wielding. I don't know what kind of tech we have available with DoD but maybe something like making Defensive Bash hurt a lot more after a block would be good.

    Another idea would be an active that heavily guards against ranged attacks that lasts until you attack or something.
     
  14. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    Yeah, they are a bit similar.. It would be nice to have a more useful shield bash I guess, what if you automatically shield bashed after successfully blocking with a high chance to stun?
     
  15. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    This is exactly why we need a TriggerOnBlock XML thingie.
     
  16. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    Viking Magic works pretty well with Blood Magic.. although I don't think the two buffs are worth getting two separate trees (and spending four more skill points) just to make them reasonable to use with other spells. I really think it would be more useful if it had more buffs/ skills/ resistances/ rage effects that tend to be pretty nice for melee characters, and less standard magic skills that warrior/ hybrids builds can't seem to effectively use.

    Edit: Trying a rogue Viking Magic build, and so far it doesn't seem bad, since crossbows, and thrown weapons benefit alot more from elemental buffs, and I can still use the magic abilities effectively with my higher :savvy:. I would rather Viking Magic be balanced for warriors though.. and not rogue builds.
     
  17. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    It seems that there is a distinct lack of corruption-protection and removal - the Demonologist offers the only solution to that, that I have seen. Also, the ONLY tree that provides a real solution to locked chests is currently Burglary, which makes it utterly indispensable IMO. An alternative to picks for opening chests without destroying contents might not be amiss.
     
  18. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Forging them, perhaps?
    With one iron ingot per 3+smithing lockpicks?
     
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  19. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    Smithing them, or Tinkering them would both be nice.. as long as they can be created with 0 crafting skill.
     
  20. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I think smithing would be better, as tinkering is already pretty useful for bolts, and that way smithing would have something that remains useful as well.

    Edit:
    And here you go, it's nothing fancy and I haven't tested it but it should work.
     

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