Rename Weapons Trees

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by FaxCelestis, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I have a bit on my plate already, but yeah, we can talk about it. I'd love to find a way to make staff damage be affected by magic power rather than melee power.
     
  2. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I could just do it myself, but I didn't want to steal your idea. Nor did I want you to hold off because of feeling the same way towards what I'd proposed. Or we could just pitch this to Essence for his rebalanced stuff.

    Good idea.
     
  3. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    My thoughts:
    • Remove the double stat bonus when Dual Wielding the same weapon type. Double all weapon skill stats to compensate.
      • Single Wielding sucks enough as it is.
    • Add procs or abilities to every level - no more 'stat only' levels.
      • Weapon skills should be treated more like Spell skills (e.g. Promethean), not Support skills (e.g. Magic Training).
    • Remove the copy-paste levels.
      • Every Weapon skill consists of:
        • 1. Stats
        • 2. Weapon-specific 20% chance Proc
        • 3. Stats
        • 4. Weapon-specific AOE Ability
        • 5. Bleeding / Wounding Proc
        • 6. Stats (although Maces get another Proc here)
      • This just seems lazy, especially the bleeding/wounding level.
    • Try to encourage different playstyles
      • Spells can be vastly different but all melee feels very samey. Ideas:
        • Fighting lone monster vs. Fighting group of monsters
          • Right now 1v1 is the only sane way to play - what if there was a skill that buffed you if two monsters hit you in a single turn?
        • Instant damage vs Hit and Run
          • Right now all melee combat provides instant damage. What if there were more 'hit and run' styles that apply nasty, unresistable DOTs from hacking off limbs? Could be good against Named Monsters.
     
  4. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    While it clearly went by the wayside while I was at work today, Fax seems to be remembering that the Weapon Tree special attacks (Axenado, Meteor, ect) don't require you to be holding the correct weapon type. Hope that clears that issue up. That said I heartily support diversifying weapons skills in more ways. All of J-Factors points are particularly worth keeping in mind, except I would say this
    belongs in the Master of Arms tree, not a weapons tree.
     
  5. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    That depends on the buff. Master of Arms could have a defence-oriented buff (e.g. increased resistances or healing) while, say, Axes could have an offense-oriented buff (e.g. increased :crit: or an additional attack for each monster that hits you).
     
  6. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    <counterBuff spell="Extra Attack" />

    and then Extra Attack can basically be an empty targetadj with the attack="1" property. Maybe make it weaker with some damage debuffs so it's not omgwtfspqrljdqtla.
     
  7. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Here are some ideas for design goals of a revamped weapon skills set:
    Swords:
    Mobility, counterattack, single target damage, bleed, multiple strikes on a single target.

    Axes
    AOE damage, critical hit, bleed, bonus damage per hit

    Maces
    Knockback, AOE Damage, stuns, armor piercing, bonus damage per hit

    Staves
    AOE Damage that scales with spellpower, Bonus damage per hit scales with spellpower

    Unarmed
    counterattack, single target damage, knockback, stuns

    Shields
    blocking, knockback, damage resistance, AOE knockback, stuns
     
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  8. Grim Peeper

    Grim Peeper Member

    Don't you mean...Master of the Bared Foot? :rolleyes:
     
  9. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    with the new requirebuffontrigger syntax, this is now possible.
     
  10. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    I dont see why we dont just keep the weapon skills as are, buff them slightly so they can actually stand a chance later in the game and then add more "support" abilities into the trees. Swords could peel fruit, making it easier to make booze from them, Axes could rip through walls, staffs could give you very little (1-3?) extra range to your attacks, thus making it great with caster builds which involve summons, walls or teleportation, clubs could give you targetable stuns (or even AOE stuns) and bows could end up having magical (but rather sub par compared to lategame) arrows so you are not forced to also have tinkerer - and so on and so forth.

    The problem I see is that you are basically limited to a single combat skill because they dont stack while at the same time not being self sufficient. You also need Shield Bearer, Dual Wielding, Tinkering or Armoring - at least - to be able to truely use your skills. While it can be argued that caster skills also suffer from this, booze can be a pretty reliable income of mana so you are not forced to pick it as well.

    If melee skills had some other application which made them a good skill in their own right, by adding support or making it truely self-sufficient, then you would have skills which are skills in their own right and thus not a forced one-skill-for-the-price-of-two. On top of this, caster skills are universal because it doesnt matter what weapons you find while with weapon skills very much do matter on this part. Not finding a good crossbow or arrows can be devastating but if you can at least have infinite arrows or at least use that Axe skill for other awesome stuff then I think it will matter less for the end result
     
  11. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Consider it pitched. I'm all over this. :)
     
  12. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    What would be nice would be if weapons skills provided some bonuses for every weapon (particularly on the third and capstone skills) and some just for the proper weapon.
     
  13. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    No can do, unless we used weird self-buffs for that (it would work, but at the same time it would look not-that-great), as weapon skills are hard-coded in the way they work.
     
  14. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Awesome. If there's anyway I can help, let me know.

    I think posts # 20, #23, and #27 form the heart of the new paradigm that's being proposed here. I'd recommend using those three posts as your blueprint.



    Two other bits of brainstorming that just ran roughshod through my head are listed below. Either might be workable, but they're almost certainly mutually exclusive. Both have some potential to be utter rubbish ideas, though, so feel free to discard them if they don't appeal to you. Mainly just thinking out loud here...

    #1: They wouldn't have to replace the existing skills. Provided that the first level was an activated ability instead of a straight damage bonus (so it + traditional weapon skill + dual wield would still be around 8-10 damage before your first level up, and not sky rocket up to 15+ damage at first level), there'd be no strict requirement to replace the original versions. The originals would still be underpowered, but could be stacked on top of the new versions if you really wanted to super-focus. The main benefit here is that then it could use the mod-loader rather than having to be part of your rebalance mod. That way it wouldn't have to be redone whenever a new patch tweaks some minor element of a totally different skill. As a side benefit it could still be used by people who for whatever reasons haven't installed your rebalance mod.

    #2. Going the other direction, there's very little reason for maces and staves to be separate categories. If the end results weren't going to use the mod-loader anyway, you could literally fold maces and staves into the same weapon class. The current distinctions about what's a mace and what's a staff are pretty arbitrary, anyway. The line of wooden clubs all kinda look like staves, as does the aluminum tube, etc. When I was first playing, I had a hard time keeping them straight. So you could pick one category, and go through itemDB setting both types to be the one. Obviously, this would result in the new maces/staves weapon category having two skills (both set to match that one new weapon category), but that wouldn't be a problem because one of the skills would be tailored to rewarding you for having a high Magic Power, and anyone taking a lot of levels in at least two warrior skills will, by default, not have a high Magic Power (at least until late game). Several new weapons would need to be made for swords and axes, to compensate for the mace/staff class suddenly having twice as many item spawns as any other weapon category. I'd be happy to donate some weapon designs and artwork to the cause. Of course this would have ripple effects throughout the game... not sure exactly how weapon spawning happens again, we'll need to check tweakDB's treasure list. :eek: Admittedly, it's a lot of work, for relatively little benefit.
     
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  15. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Well r_b_bergstrom, I am not sure what the difference is between your #1 and #2 ideas. They could both be done separately, and if I understand, could both be done *Together* without even touching the base skills. Except the nagging detail about modifying the itemDB.xml for the game to make items more manageable. If anyone actually bothers to do that, we could make an *Everything is a Mace Mod* and an *Everything is a Staff Mod* too. That way you could pick your skill of choice and not worry about what weapons you get, since even a rapier can be used to bludgeon something, although with greatly limited success.

    Anyone have an idea how long we have before the next official patch? If we have a while, I would like to see some core rebalances that may well be considered cheats. No, not because I need any help cheating. (Many of you have seen one or more of my screenshots of a cheated character with 99999 of all items, not to mention HP/Mana.) I would like to see unfair mods to test the viability of the newer ideas, despite what some may say about how rotten and unfair it may be. Someone has to try before we have any real insight into what actually helps in this problem.

    I suggest some OP, but double edged weapon skills. Doing damage trumps resisting/evading/blocking damage in almost every situation where someone bothers to take a weapon skill. Taking a weapon skill basically makes you dedicated to hitting things with said weapon. And if you cannot kill things fast enough/well enough then you will die. Simple enough.

    So how about skills that add heavily to :melee_power: while heavily lowering all of :armor_asorb:, :block:, and :dodge:? I would even add :magic_resist: except that it is essential for resisting status ailments you can get from trap while not even in combat.

    This could be done as a cooldown buff/debuff that you activate when you actually have something to melee. It may even be a persistent thing. I think we would have to play with it to find a proper balance.

    I think I entirely lost my original thoughts on this and am currently spewing craziness. Sigh. Sorry folks.
     
  16. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    This thread was in suggestions, and not modding! A permanent self-buff that is deployed from the skill hotbar would do it though.

    Making the bonuses apply to everything would be nice too, and nerf dual wielding in the process since it can't double up on bonuses anymore.

    Perhaps all the weapon skills (except unarmed, which provides some two activated abilities instead of one and buffs ranged attacks as well, and also excepting thrown and archery, which aren't mutually exclusive with any of the others) should be A) nerfed somewhat and B) have their pasive buffs and procs happen regardless of weapon wielded. Huh, these exceptions actually cover all the things not susceptible to being doubled by dual wielding...
     
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  17. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    #0 (neither proposal, just the stuff before it in the thread) would be to replace the existing skills via something akin to essence's rebalance mod. Make the weapon skills, which are a little anemic in their current state, more dynamic and flavorful.

    #1 proposes a second sword skill, second axe skill, etc. The main-game files are not changed. You could take staves skill, and the new staves skill both. New staves would excel in that it has more activated powers. As a result, it probably would need to do less bonus damage or have fewer raw stat boosts than old staves. A character could have either, or both.

    As a result, the new weapon skill can't do bonus damage on the first level, or else the combo of dual-wield + old weapon skill + new weapon skill becomes high enough that you can one-shot the first floor without taking any further levels.

    #2 proposes rolling maces and staves in together. Main game files are changed. ItemDB, yes, but also the skillDB would be changed in that staves would be replaced by new "Combat Mage" (using Fax's terminology from the 1st post). Both would care about the single larger class of items now called Maces that would include everything that already was a Mace, plus those things added as Staves. The old Mace skill would be revised to include the most-warriorly-aspects of both of the original skills, such as both the area-effect activated triggers. The new Combat Mage skill would include the boosts to magic power / haywire, plus probably some block, certainly activated abilities that scale based on Magic Power rating, and maybe a summonable animated staff weapon. Combat Mage wouldn't be useful unless you had a lot of wizard levels, so taking it and the new Mace skill wouldn't be particularly synergistic.

    One problem with trying to use both #1 and #2 in a single implementation is that now you'd have Old Maces, New Maces, Old Staves, and Combat Mage all as possible skills to take along side one-another, all boosting the same handful of stats. You could make a character with those 4 skills plus 3 other wizard skills that give melee boosts (say, Viking Wizardry, Necronomiconomics, and Astrology) to make a character that does obscene levels of melee damage in the late game.

    Likewise if you chose a combo of Old Mace, New Mace, Old Staff and Dual Wield, you'd be looking at a sick amount of bonus damage in the early game. Currently, using Mace, Staff and Dual-Wield, you get +3 bonus damage at first level, which is actually 1 less than you get if you just take Mace and Dual-Wield (which gives +4 damage at first level, once you find a second mace). Maxing out all those skills in the current system gives a maximum damage boost of +13 (+6 from Maces, doubled for dual-wield, +1 melee power from Not Drizzt).
    But with this combined #1 + #2 version, even if New Mace gave no damage at the first level you'd still start with two weapons and get +6 damage bonus right out of the gate. Your maximum damage boost if you maxed out the skills in the new version. would climb to +23 (+6 doubled for Old Maces, +5 doubled for Old Staves, +1 melee power for Not Drizzt) and then on top of that we'd add double whatever the final damage bonus is from New Maces, so probably +31 to +37 total, along with all those procs and activated abilities.

    Does that explain the difference?

    For the record, I kinda think neither #1 nor #2 was that great of an idea in the first place, but I dare say that together #1 + #2 would be a recipe for ridiculous brokenness that should be avoided.

    I got the impression you were half-joking when you posted that, but I gotta say there's some potential there. It would certainly be unique and distinctive. You'd be really good in 1vs1 fights, but have to play extra sharp vs hordes, zoos and casters. Low-power but high-dodge monsters like battys and mustaches would be more dangerous than usual. I kinda like it. Would make a good Warrior or Rogue skill, provided you can come up with some flavor text and non-mechanical concept to match.

    I'd vote for making the penalties static and ever-present, including penalties to :magic_resist:, but include a level late in the tree that was a large temporary :magic_resist: boost on a timer, kinda the way Vegan eventually gives you the tools to overcome its big handicaps.
     
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  18. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I was brainstorming some more for revamping the weapon skills

    Swords: max counter
    Mobility, counterattack, single target damage, bleed, multiple strikes on a single target.

    Axes: max DPS
    AOE damage, critical hit, bleed, bonus damage per hit

    Maces: +DPS with utility
    Knockback, AOE Damage, stuns, armor piercing, bonus damage per hit

    Staves: melee damage enhanced by spellpower
    AOE Damage that scales with spellpower, Bonus damage per hit scales with spellpower

    Unarmed: Counter + defense
    counterattack, single target damage, knockback, stuns

    Shields: Block + defense
    blocking, knockback, damage resistance, AOE knockback, stuns

    A power attack is a short cooldown ability that offers a benefit to the player on their next melee attack.

    preparation means that it applies a buff that lasts until the player's next turn (applies when monsters attack in melee for that turn)

    Swords
    (lunge ability)
    (Multi hit combo ability)
    (preparation counter ability)
    Axes
    (massive criticals ability triggered by critical, bleed, bonus melee damage)
    (4 way melee attack)
    (Power Attack crit buff ability)
    Maces
    (crushing blow ability triggered on hit, shattered bones debuff, bonus melee damage)
    (enhance ragnar's meteor)
    (Power attack stun and/or knockback ability + AOE melee damage)
    Staves
    (energy strike ability triggered on hit, bonus damage based on spellpower, buff with mana upkeep, perhaps removes players mana each time he hits something)
    (power attack AOE spellpower damage)
     
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  19. Karock

    Karock Member

    I honestly agree with the premise of 'but my chest of evil didn't give me that type..." ruining weapon skills.

    A cooler alternative would be to have weapon skills give you increased weighting on finding that weapon type. After all, investment of the skill is a rather large thing the way things currently are with lack of ability to find that weapon class in as good a weapon as another random CoE weapon.
     
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