Rename Weapons Trees

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by FaxCelestis, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    The weapons trees (Swords, Axes, Maces, Staves, Unarmed, and to a certain extent Shields) don't actually require their weapons to be made use of. There have been previous suggestions that would make them require the use of their signature weapon to function, but I'm going to suggest in the other direction: leave them globally applicable, but rename them to remove confusion.

    • Swords → Duelist
    • Axes → Dervish
    • Maces → Slugger (like Louisville)
    • Staves → Combat Mage
    • Unarmed → Master of the Empty Hand
    • Shield Bearer → Aegis
     
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  2. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Might be good candidates for the adventurer title system once the devs decide to fix that.

    Otherwise, no. It would be too ambiguous.
     
  3. Balhichou

    Balhichou Member

    I didn't know you could use them without the weapons, but I totally agree. Seeing "Axe" or "Sword" next to funny skill trees such as "Fungal Arts" is a bit anticlimatic.

    Plus, I don't think it will need too much work from the devs. So, great idea !
     
  4. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Ambiguous? I don't follow.
     
  5. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    It's not clear that a dervish uses axes, same thing for duelist, and combat mage (also, there are non-mage weapons that are staves too) There's a risk of confusing new players that isn't worth it.
     
  6. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    ...but the skills don't require those weapons. I'm suggesting they be renamed instead of making them require weapons, so that their mechanical benefits match their thematic properties more accurately. A duelist is counter-focused. A slugger is knockback/heavy damage focused.
     
  7. Balhichou

    Balhichou Member

    So it would require to change the icons, too ? At least the main ones ? Because as it is now, the icons suggest that the skills focus on a single weapon each.
     
  8. Ruigi

    Ruigi Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Ah I see. In that case, Swords should be renamed to fencing. axes should be a viking themed skill.
     
  9. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    What are you smoking, Fax? :p Weapon skills totally key in to what weapon you have in hand.

    I just double-checked it. Started a new character, with axe skill and mace skill. Used the debug mode to level up. Took 3 or 4 levels of mace skill, no additional axe skill. Here's my stats holding an axe:
    weaponskills1.gif

    And here's my stats holding a mace:
    weaponskills2.gif

    You'll see that my Mace skill is providing more bonus damage than my axe skill, and I only get that damage when holding a mace. Plus, my other stats are likewise pumped when wielding a mace. I get +3 :crit: +2:edr: when using a mace-class weapon.

    Plus, I walked into a room or two and swung my axe at things. Dwarven Handshake never triggered. Swapped to the mace, and suddenly it started triggering. I suppose that could be RNG messing with me, but I don't think it is.

    The only thing about weapon skills that can be used without the correct weapon type is the activated abilities (thibault's trompement, ragnar's meteor, etc)
     
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  10. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    Wait, so you are saying that it could actually very well pay off to just max out a ton of weapon skills and that you can easily benefit from using weapons even though you have unarmed? So you can actually have like +40:edr: easily from weapon skills and use it all at once?

    Damn that may be why my melee characters fail so badly
     
  11. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    No, I think our dear Fax has just been working too hard. Either that, or he's using some mod that bugged it. I just checked it, and everything's working as expected on my computer. Bonuses from weapon skills only apply if you've got the correct weapon in hand.
     
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  12. Glazed

    Glazed Member

    Wha....? I thought that was the whole point of these skills. I was saying I don't use them because they limit you to only one weapon type, and you never know what you get in a Chest of Evil. No one was correcting me... :(

    Oh, good! I wasn't crazy then.
     
  13. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I agree with that. Get some sleep Fax, you are more tired than you think you are.
     
  14. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Khaaaaaaaaan

    I remember them not working. Weird.

    Okay, so I now have an alternative suggestion: unbind the weapons trees from specific weapons and do what I said in the initial post. I find that weapons trees are largely traps.
     
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  15. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Personally, I think that they are better off being limited to weapon types. The only thing is that they should be somewhat better than other skill trees (let's ignore Vampirism for a moment) in exchange for being limited.
     
  16. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Right, and right now they're not better than other skill trees, not by a long shot.
     
  17. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    True, but that could be solved fairly easily, couldn't it? Buff up the overall damage a little bit, buff up the area-effect cool-down moves significantly, and tone down Chests of Evil so they aren't washed out completely.

    I'm wary of making them not require certain weapons, simply because they give so many boosts to EDR, crit and damage. Each one is individually weak, but if they all stacked I think they'd get out of hand, wouldn't they? I must admit I haven't really run the numbers.
     
  18. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Double posting because this is a very separate thought and probably worth it, I hope.

    I really appreciate that DoD has so much replayability. One of the main causes of that, for me at least, is that different builds give a completely different play experience. Weapon skills aren't as flavorful or game-altering as Vegan, Were-diggle, or even Necro, but I still really like the theory that what you'll craft or wield is a function of the weapon skills you take. I'd thus rather see the weapon skills get individually better, rather than broader. I want the decision of which weapon skill I take to have a meaningful impact. Dilluting the need to use a particular weapon type does the opposite of that. It makes all melee builds play that much more alike, which is a shame.

    When the Weapon skills were added to the game, they had another benefit that's since been eliminated. They used to reduce the damage penalty for being unskilled. That penalty was annoying, not because it kept casters from fighting in melee, but because it wasn't transparent. You knew you were being penalized, but you couldn't see how large the penalty was. It was frustrating not being able to trust your stats, and having to reverse-engineer the difference between advertised weapon stats and their actual output. So I'm glad that penalty went away. However, it meant that one of the most important aspects of each weapon skill evaporated. They no longer give you the bonus that is the inverse of whatever that penalty was. When the penalty went away, all the weapon skills should have been given a boost to compensate. They weren't, so now they're weaker than they used to be.
     
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  19. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    And you're giving up an entire skill tree to do it. As it stands, you can take, say, axes and assassination to stack up some crit, or swords and perception for EDR. All this would do would turn them from "weapon specific skills" to "combat style skills", which would broaden their applicability somewhat.

    I really don't think that MOAR DAMAGE is going to solve anything. Damage is prolific and everywhere: buffs, potions, rings, weapons, what have you. What these really need to be competitive is to be able to do things you can't do elsewhere. It's like in D&D, when people whine about Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards, I always say that it boils down to options and potential: at sixth level, a wizard can throw a fireball with a 20' radius, while a fighter can...hit a dude twice. It's not comparable: it's not even in the same ballpark, and it only gets worse from there.

    The weapon skills are exactly the same here: they're needlessly bound down to a concept of 'realism', in that the things they do are things you can pretty much expect a competent wielder of one of those weapons to be able to do. If we were concerned with realism, we wouldn't have diggles, blood magic, or Lord Dredmor himself. I think the question we should be asking is not, "Does this make sense?" (because lets' face it, there's plenty in this game that doesn't), but instead "Is this awesome?"
     
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  20. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Well argued post, Fax.

    Absolutely. That's actually in line with what I was saying in the second half of my double-post just before yours.

    I'm not arguing from "this is realistic" at all. I don't care about realism. The weapon skills could include lots more wuxia and special effects, and I'd be thrilled with that. I care about options, just as you do, and that starts with character creation.

    I didn't want penalties because they're realistic, I think back on the old penalty somewhat lovingly because it made the weapon choice matter a little. I long for the days when smithing + a specific weapon type was a part of a non-foolish character build. I hate that the typical CoE weapon is so ridiculously good that it overshadows 7 or 8 different skill trees.

    However, I feel that changing the name of the skill and making it not care about weapon type just makes it less flavorful and offer less meaningful decisions. Being able to use those skills with any weapon does not really increase options, as then you'll just always choose to use the best weapon you've picked up (usually the one with the most damage or most damage types). That said, changing the names and/or eliminating the weapon requirements could work, as long as the skills also got more tactical options added to their trees.

    What I'd like to see is two non-wizardly melee fighter builds actually play differently, which they already kinda do, but that could be really turned up. The easy no-effort way to do that is just make the existing stat boosts more powerful so you're given a reason to stick to a particular weapon type, but that's admittedly kinda boring and lackluster. The more interesting route would be to add another activated ability to each tree that does something special and useful.

    For example:
    • Give Sword-users a "lunge" ability that teleports and attacks.
    • Make the Axenado more exciting, with a fun animation, a larger area, and maybe (maybe) a random teleport as you're whisked away from Kansas. Then add a second activated power that either simulates axe throwing, or maybe one that cleaves an opponent into stuff ala big game hunter, or maybe even a wall-destroying one-space dig power.
    • Emphasize the knock-back effects of Maces more. Maybe another activated ability that does specific targeted knockback, but several instances of it against a single foe so they get bashed back multiple spaces more consistently, and probably debuffs as well.
    • Give staves a special attack that uses mana to activate, or maybe an on-cast proc, since it's already the weapon skill best suited to casters. Maybe an animated staff summonable monster?
    • Unarmed: Some sort of escape teleport that's flavored like you're leaping away or running on the walls. Or maybe the classic "quivering palm" that causes a delayed death several turns later, the "exploding heart technique" version of tentacular infestation.
    • Shield bearer: The ability to make a barrier space kinda like unliving wall, except it looks like a shield sunk part way into the ground.
    Fax, if you'd be interested, I'd be happy to work with you on a mod that does just this: extends each weapon skill tree by 1 level, and gives them each something more useful and unique than just "bonus damage".
     
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