Question about Translation rerolls

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by APODIONYSUS, Aug 18, 2011.

  1. dhex

    dhex Member

    fair enough - those are strong arguments in favor. maybe i was just bitter at how i seemed to be repeatedly hosed.

    does ttiaw re-roll enchantment effects like the thaumites (sometimes more curse than blessing, i think) or the blinding flash effect?
  2. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    @Kaoy "I personally think the game should delete your last save and auto-save after using an anvil, lutfisk shrine, using TTiAW, or completing a quest. "

    First off, no, just no, that's malicious behavior for a game to do, and it's suicide for a game company. Borderline virus level maliciousness. Yes, deleting files is a malicious thing.
    I won't bother going into long details here. Just know one thing, no one would ever do that. NEVER suggest a game should punish people for what they do on their own computer. NEVER. If you think it's a good idea, I will go and call the Hague War Crimes Tribunal. :) If you wonder why, it's because that's as bad as what you suggested. :)

    Also, my bad, 5/7, not 5/8
  3. Kaoy

    Kaoy Member

    If you are playing a rouge like and exploiting a necessary function like one-time saves by force closing the program so you can force it to reload the same save over and over for your own benefit and suggesting that others do the same 'Because its totally fair', then you are an ass and negating the time and effort those of us who don't wish to cheat have put into actually learning to play the game in such a way that such tricks aren't necessary.

    Point being, if you are playing a game with perma-death, you roll with the punches and take what you get, because that is how it is meant to be played.

    EDIT: Not to mention, what exactly do you think is happening every time you make a new save on the same character?
  4. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Hold on, you're talking about Permadeath only? Right? Not the non-permadeath option?
    Well, sorry, I still don't agree.
    A. Angband and Nethack both have build in cheating modes. Your argument is now invalid because of that. Not to mention their cheating modes are far more powerful than a reroll of a Krong from a bad roll to a good one.
    B. It's still fairly malicious. Extremely more so than people cheating.
    C. No one is going to take the idea of randomly and magically deleting save games at certain points seriously. That is insane by the very definition of the word.
    D. Never try to prevent the end user, I.E. the Player from cheating. Leave it up to them. Otherwise you will be guilty of forcing your way on everyone else.
    E. No one force quits the game to reroll the Anvil. To my knowledge. They hit Alt-F4. To go back to the main menu. Force quit doesn't make sense.
    F. Your views are still extreme, and you should tone them down a few hundred notches.
    G. Never put words in my mouth. Show me where I was an ass and suggested that everyone cheat.

    Regardless of all things, cheating in any game should not be crushed under hundred of tons of nonsensical malicious code.

    And what is wrong with getting one good roll on an Anvil. The Bad always for me, outweigh any good roll. Do you think people sit there and reroll good rolls too? That's a bit silly.
  5. Vykk Draygo

    Vykk Draygo Member

    There is nothing "malicious" about deleting saves on permadeath. Brutal, yes, malicious, no. If you don't like a game where you could die from bad luck, or from a mistake you've made, then play with permadeath off. The option is built in, so I see no reason to try to circumvent it.

    I fail to see how a built-in cheat mode is the same as exploiting flaws in a game. If you want to cheat, go ahead, but please stop making unrelated arguments in favor of it. Save scumming is save scumming, and exploiting is exploiting.

    On a side note, I'm so tired of seeing "your argument is now invalid because of X." If you want to invalidate an argument, refute it logically. Telling someone their argument is invalid is childish, and petulant. Unless you are pointing out a logical fallacy, in which case it would be more acceptable. (Eg: You used circular reasoning, so your argument is invalid.)

    Also, you really like hyperbole, don't you?
  6. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Damnit, it's like no one actually reads what I write! GAH!
    First off, he's talking about deleting the saves randomly after using an anvil of Krong. That's so far removed from how Permadeath gets rid of saves that it's not even funny.

    Also, sorry for using the Argument is now invalid, It was the only thing I could think of.
    MAybe if you read what he wrote, and suggested, you would realize how far it's different.
    Unrelated arguments in favor of cheating? Wow, you didn't even read my post, or his.
    Seriously, I don't know how much more simpler I can make it.

    I'm sorry, I'm usually a patient person, but the fact here is, he's suggesting the game maliciously removes your save game after you use an Anvil of Krong, or something equally like that, to prevent you from rerolling the save. Without telling you, without letting you know, without any indication it's in the game.

    That is malicious by the definition of the word.

    Also, how the hell is it exploiting a flaw in this game to reroll a bad Krong roll? That is the most silliest thing I ever heard. And believe me, I've heard all sorts of silly things before.

    Also, I thought Save scumming would be copying the save to another directory, and then copying it back when you die, going on and doing this until you win.
    It's not like backing up saves in case of a catastrophic hard drive failure. :) I'm fairly certain that wouldn't be savescumming, except by scum. :)

    Not to mention, as stated, two famous Roguelikes both have cheating options. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with what cheating is if you don't understand why I used them as examples. Angband allows for re-rolling items in the cheat options. :) So, therefor, it is a cheat in Angband.

    And hyperbole? I suppose I do sometimes. Especially when I am frustrated by people.
    I just don't understand what I have to say to get people to understand what I am complaining about. GAH!

    Don't insult my intelligence by dismissing anything I say just because you didn't read my post correctly.

    Honestly, it's not like I'm trying to get everyone and their brother to cheat. Duh. I'm simply pointing out that punishing the end user for cheating in a game, which makes it's game files easily editable, this game, and like Angband, is suicide for a game company to do.
    It's akin to launching a nuclear missile from a silo, without opening the silo door. That is not hyperbole, that is an example. There's a difference. :)

    Also, here's something crazy. I like Roguelikes. I like sometimes hard games, I like lots of things. Hell, I beat the Doom Roguelike. Finally. After years of playing it off and on. Without any cheating.
    So, yeah, I like games that are challenging but fun. Doesn't mean I don't play games to have fun. Like this. What Kaoy, and apparently you, thought I could be mistaken, are suggesting is that I don't have fun.
  7. Vykk Draygo

    Vykk Draygo Member

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but it reads as if you were saying that you were save-scumming to get better Krong rolls. You said to save first, then alt-F4, or die, then reload. This is save-scumming, and, in the case of using alt-F4, exploiting a game feature. Again, this is different from a cheat mode. You are saying that Angband has a built in mode that enables cheating, if you so wish. This game doesn't exactly have that in place, you have to exploit the game in order to get the result you are wanting. It's not an intended way to play the game. Abuse the flaw if you want, but it is certainly not the same thing as an included cheat mode.

    I don't think saves should be deleted without permadeath being enabled, certainly not without foreknowledge, but I see nothing wrong with removing them in permadeath. That said, I'm not advocating it either. :)

    The assertion that punishing cheating will cause the company to tank is hyperbole. You are assuming that a great many people will stop buying the game because they can't cheat. I don't think that deleting saves to prevent save-scumming on permadeath will really make the company go belly up. It's a bit of an exaggeration. This isn't on the same level as giving your character huge debuffs if the game detects edited files, or something. I also believe that modding is separate from cheating, though it is often used to accomplish the end.

    I love modding! I used to be big into modding. Back with Jedi Knight, and Half-Life. Ah, those were the glory days.

    And I wasn't attempting to insult your intelligence. I apologize if I came across that way, honestly. And I think I understand you, I just don't necessarily agree with you. :)
  8. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Okay, I understand. And I should also apologize. One of my biggest flaws is that I sometimes don't understand things that should be rather simple. :)
    And no, the game deleting saves randomly in permadeath when you don't die, is just wrong. On every level.

    Also, heh, Big debuffs. Did you read about how ADOM handled save game editing all those years ago? :) -5000 to luck. :)

    And yeah, it won't make the company go belly-up, but maybe I was more implying that the person who adds that to their game will be mysteriously assassinated by Ninjas. :)
    I don't know.

    I'm just not a big fan of removing the player of a game's ability to play however he wants.
    In Single player. Multiplayer, I'm a big fan of cheat protection. The first thing I would do if I created a game would be protecting from cheating in Multiplayer.

    However, yes, you are right, it is save scumming, a bit different from what I was told a long time ago about what save scumming was, but still.
    I"m glad you can put up with my insanity, I can be a bit dense. Neutron Star dense. :)

    All things considered, my opinion will never change on the let it be up to the player to cheat, or not to cheat.
  9. Hahnsoo

    Hahnsoo Member

    You could simply have the game save right after you use an altar. It would effectively be the same as deleting the save to prevent save scumming, and probably work better in terms of preventing save scumming in Permadeath while still preventing the loss of a game upon crashing. Permadeath ALREADY deletes the savegame when you die and progress to the Tombstone screen. It's not a malicious thing at all. It's part of how the game handles permadeath, and many other games delete files ALL the time. Any game with a file cache deletes the temporary cache files when it closes. NOT cleaning up those files is more malicious, as it's prone to cause errors. An example of this is The Sims 3... there are several cache files that continue to grow larger the longer you play, and until those cache files are cleared, you'll gradually lose in-game performance.
  10. Psiweapon

    Psiweapon Member

    Yeah, the deck is stacked in your favour, but that doesn't prevent Krong from calling Xom over to the poker party night and teaming with him to troll you with SEVEN FRICKING CURSES IN A ROW.
  11. kuhchung

    kuhchung Member

    Or save characters on a server somewhere! Then we could access our char from any computer, and we wouldn't be able to locally edit save files. Eh? Eh?
  12. 1wolffan

    1wolffan Member

    It seems to work something like this...

    Say you have +2-Voltaic, +1-caddishness, and +1-resist-piercing (I call that a +4 enchantment).
    If you re-roll with translation all wrong, you have a pretty good chance to get a different set of enchantments that equal +4 (i.e. +2-fire-resist, +2-nimble -1-HP, +1-mana-regen).

    But in the new patch, you also have a chance of only getting a +3 out of the reroll (i.e. +2-crit, +1-existential). Then +3 becomes that items number. If you use translation on a +1, and it zaps that one, You get lost in your own museum, meaning the item is pretty much not magical anymore (though still an artifact)

    I hope that was clear enough an answer for you. Never mind that if you have a "does this on contact" ability, you almost always lose it in a translation rewire.