What we see here is a disagreement over how to classify Daggers. 123 rates it as a turbocharger and uses it as a way to augment certain builds. However, I feel that using Daggers this way is not only a disservice to the skill, its not that good a performer as a turbocharger. Sneaking isn't necessary if you want to be a tinkerer. That's mainly about bolts, crafts and trap salvaging, you don't need stealth, or anything Daggers offers, really, to max Tinkering as an engine. If we take Daggers just to up crit rate we wind up with a skill that penalizes melee power to boost crit rate. While for a dedicated Dagges user that provides a way to bypass block chance and avoid the occasional counter attack, for an axe user or other melee fighter there are better turbochargers. Berserk Rage offers much, much more melee power most of the time and an ista-crit skill that will probably give us just as much if not more damage than the sneak attack stance from daggers, and it will come faster than maxing out Axes and taking Daggers, which means you'll enjoy it for longer until monster defenses make critical hits less important. Clockwork Knights offers Clockwork Threshing and Clockwork Ravagers, who's extra attacks will produce much, much more damage than a +25% crit boost with a -5 melee power penalty. Likewise, if you want maxed counter all you need is Dual Wield, Swords and Smithing, and you can add Paranormal Investigator if you're unsure of you ability to acquire the Ring of Iron Thorns recipe. Those will get you pretty much all the counter you could want and add damage instead of subtracting it. Shrike's Ring or Digglish Torment rings are just gravy, as is the Wreath of Iron Thorns. But I feel that Daggers is more than "just another melee skill". The other melee skills were more turbochargers than engines. Daggers is an engine. It offers three activated abilities and two stances, allowing you to tailor your approach to any situation. Lone monsters are easily overwhelmed with the Sneaky stance while platoons and zoos can be worn down with the Wall of Blades and repeated uses of your DoT skills. If things get too hot, just walk around a corner and watch the monsters loose track of you entirely. Then stick 'em full of Thaumites. If you build with Daggers as a turbocharger all those other abilities and stances are just sitting there as dead weight. You don't get the passive bonuses. Your activated abilities aren't that hot. You never really want to max out the skill, even when you have nothing else to do with all your levels. Viewing Daggers one way leaves you with a meh skill that tweaks you out early and leaves you below the curve late, while viewing it the other gives you a fighting style with attitude and flexibility that's a lot of fun to play and offers a lot more synergy. You can look at it whichever way you want, but I know which I like better.