Non-hormonal birth control pill for men slated for take-off in Indonesia.

Discussion in 'Discussions' started by lccorp2, Apr 14, 2012.

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  1. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Small interesting tidbit from my part of the world, because a lot of my Indonesian friends are quite enthusiastic about it of late now that the drugs are slated to come out in their home country really soon:

    I know these links are somewhat dated, but they're the more relevant sources I could easily get on the internets.

    Regulations might delay it from reaching guys in the western world for some more years, but things look set to be very interesting. What do you guys think?
    Loswaith likes this.
  2. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    Sounds promising, but I have little hope that it will ever get to the States.
  3. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    We are kind of backwards in that way lol.
  4. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    We're fighting against a slide back into the dark ages here, practically. This country is so puritanical it's simply absurd and there are people pushing hard to make things like contraception nigh-unobtainable or illegal even (the same kind of people who say things like "back in my day we used aspirin as a contraceptive, the woman was given one to hold between her knees" and other such troglodyte-spew). And the pharmaceutical juggernauts here will no doubt fight tooth and nail to keep it out of the States if they can't make money off of it somehow.
    SkyMuffin likes this.
  5. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    There are people out there making money from sugar water marking it up over a thousand percent and calling it 'homeopathic remedies'. So the idea that the pharmaceutical industry can't make money from a male birth control pill is ridiculous. The only question is if it will be blocked from the marketplace and for how long.

    Heck, my local pharmacy sells copper wrist bands to cure vertigo and 'head-on' to cure headaches, both of which are proven to, at best, only cure having too much money in your wallet. (heck, the head of the company that sells Head-On actually went to jail and it's still in the stores). Not selling something that actually IS affective for what its sold for? That's not how things work here.
  6. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    Its kinda funny because the first amendment actually prohibits congress from making "any law respecting an establishment of religion" - or in plain English: No laws based on religion (which contraception bans certainly sound like to me).

    From a European standpoint, Americans are wierd - for instance, in the bible belt most people support the death penalty... because they are christians... whose religion prohibits killing humans. Anyway, not meant as a poo-flinging-competition starter - I just couldnt help myself
  7. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    The problem is that many people to the right in both politics and other arenas, deny that the separation of church and state is in the constitution (though personally, I don't see any other way to interpret it). I personally am always offended when I hear our country called a 'Christian nation', as if I, and so many others, have no part in it, not actually being a Christian. I sometimes get the feeling that there are people running our country who would rather we lived in a theocracy.
  8. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Ugh, copper wrist bands? In a pharmacy? I'm trying to imagine that, and failing. While there are traditional Chinese medicine halls here, they don't profess to equivate themselves to western medicine, don't claim to sell panaceas, and at least in the cases of the most common remedies there is usually some scientific backing as to the active ingredients in TCM.

    If we were going to speak logically, then there's little reason why it shouldn't be accepted by the US of A (or at least, as much as I know of it). It's another layer of protection, it's harder for two people to forget to take their pills or have their contraception fail at the same time, and no more fiddling about with condoms in the heat of the moment or worrying about them breaking, and so forth. Also, you hear of cases over the internet where women (for one reason or the other) attempt to sabotage birth control in order to use the baby trap, and if this gandarusa pill goes through it does place a form on contraception into the hands of men that only they are responsible for.

    Of course, there's always the social aspect. As far as my friends know, the Imams back home haven't said anything about the issue yet, although I'm not sure how your religious folk are going to take such a thing.
  9. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    As an American living in the heart of the Bible Belt, (The Fiery Pits of Texas...) I can attest to the idiocy of most religious extremists. But let me open your eyes a bit more to something most people in the world do not know about.

    I was mostly self taught. But some of my education was given by the state of Texas. I was told specifically that the word Bible *MUST* *ALWAYS* *BE* *CAPITALIZED* or God would be offended. Why do I mention this? Because I read the entire King James version of the Bible and found no evidence of this.

    This is one of many stupid things I was taught by a lunatic while I was in the public schools. I could go on for pages about some of the other idiotic things I was taught, but I will keep this brief.

    I was told that after God, my next *Oath* must be to the state of Texas. Then the USA. In that order. I remember one kid that refused to say the pledge of allegiance one time and was kicked out of school the same day. I and others asked if he would be allowed to change his mind and agree to do so as we were required to every morning, and I was told that "This school does not condone traitors." Pfft.

    In my opinion, requiring people to say an oath makes the oath meaningless. Period.

    Later in life I attended a private school for several years. It was bordering on a military academy for children. Discipline trumped justice every last time. It was also supposedly a Christian academy. But several times I asked questions they were unwilling to entertain and was severely punished for it. One such question is relevant here:

    Thou shalt not bear false witness against thine neighbor. That never said thou shalt not lie. It said bear false WITNESS AGAINST thine neighbor. I asked for clarification of this. I argued that this sounds like a rather specific commandment that cannot be reinterpreted to mean lying in general. I suppose it was an unholy statement to their ears. They believed strongly in corporal punishment and never, ever questioning their perfect interpretation of things said by an almighty being that could choose his words well.

    I was out of that school in a day from there. If I had stayed, they would very literally have killed me.

    The point of this is that extremists have specific views that they cannot be shaken from despite any evidence. They need not make sense to anyone with half a brain. They believe what they believe more because others told them that is the correct interpretation than any actual understanding of the words they hold most holy and divinely inspired.

    The "Deep South" of the USA is just what the stigma says. We in Texas are mostly Rednecks with little education, and illegal immigrants from Mexico and South American Nations. (It can be very hard to tell those latter two groups apart.)

    Believe whatever you want, but understand why you believe it. Otherwise you are a puppet and not worthy of whatever you think you will get for holding those beliefs. (Heaven.)

    Now I will shut up until someone asks me something. I fully support birth control.
    Essence, TheJadedMieu and Kazeto like this.
  10. klaymen_sk

    klaymen_sk Member

    And can you do something with it? Or just the Christians have the right to b*tch about things they do not like and non-Christians are a mere atheist/islamic/whatever scum? I don't mean it as an offense against Christians, I just don't like those whiny ones, whose sense of self-entitlement is over the top. I mean getting offended about D&D or Magic: The Gathering because of demons.....seriously? Seriously?

    Also on a related note - it seems that for example Arizona would ban such birth control pills right off the bat:
    TheJadedMieu likes this.
  11. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Well klaymen_sk, the problem is that no politician has any chance of success in that profession if they are honest. They do whatever they think the people that will bother to vote want. They have exactly zero concern for right and wrong and if the majority of the minority that bothers to vote think that killing people who even discuss birth control is a good idea, that will be the focus of their agenda.

    Arizona is right next door to my home state of Texas. We have similarly messed up laws being proposed by idiots on a daily basis.

    Let me just go ahead and say it. Anyone who lives in the USA and is not barred from voting due to legal or mental issues, but choses not to, cannot say a single solitary thing here or anywhere else. Period. They had the chance to voice their opinion. They already passed on the opportunity when it could have made a difference. They forfeited the right to bemoan how things turned out.

    That said, voting really counts for nothing besides a protest. Even if 100% of the votes in Texas went towards Democrats or Libertarians or even Batman, there is exactly ZERO chance of any of that counting in the end. Why? Because Texas is a Republican state and the voters do not vote for President. They use... What is that term? I'll edit this in a bit when I find the right terminology for this system we have.

    Others already in power in this state decide arbitrarily who the people voted for. I am not kidding or exaggerating. "Electoral Votes"? I must use Wikipedia...

    Yep. Electoral Votes. Read the article when you want to be nauseated with political BS. They have exactly no responsibility to carry the votes of the majority that bothers to vote. They simply decide who they want. Can anyone say corruption?
  12. klaymen_sk

    klaymen_sk Member

    I vaguely remember about proposed law that creationism should be taught on schools in Science class. I think it was in Texas or somewhere nearby. That was moronic enough.

    quote="OmniNegro, post: 31286, member: 3801"]
    Others already in power in this state decide arbitrarily who the people voted for. I am not kidding or exaggerating. "Electoral Votes"? I must use Wikipedia...

    Yep. Electoral Votes. Read the article when you want to be nauseated with political BS. They have exactly no responsibility to carry the votes of the majority that bothers to vote. They simply decide who they want. Can anyone say corruption?[/quote]

    Mother of God.....DPRK's Kim dynasty is nothing compared to this farce. I mean, you have some good laws. For example we have nothing like Castle Law, but this is too much.

    Anyways, I'd better not pollute this thread with politics anymore.
  13. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Hi, sorry, we have a policy of no general religion or politics thread in this forum, incidentally this thread is derailed to both!

    I'd also appreciate if people could show some restraint about these subjects (feel free to talk about them in PMs or something, this software supports multi user convos.) I don't want to start warning people for it, but lately we've had many-a derails in otherwise unrelated threads. Thank you!
  14. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    I'll reopen it because it's a subject worth discussing and the OP was good, just please refrain from derailing it towards religion or the current state of politics in your country.
    mining and OmniNegro like this.
  15. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I do not know what made you decide to do so, but I thank you. I personally hate when threads get closed down right when they get interesting. Not that I am in any way upset at you for enforcing the rules here.

    But enough of that. I will refrain from politics and religion as best I can.

    Can anyone tell me how bad the side effects would be and how effective it would be? I am personally interested only in the details for curiosity.I read the article and it says no side effects. But I always doubt such things that sound too good to be true.

    I have thus far lived a life of abstinence by choice due to medical issues that I know are hereditary. I simply will not risk impregnation at any rate, even if it were a one in a million thing. There are other ways to satisfy oneself. And to satisfy an understanding partner.

    I am going to try to find details on if this plant can be grown easily where I live. I would love to mass produce it for others to buy at cost provided they promise to only use it for themselves. I do not want pharmaceutical companies to make the plant illegal and monopolize the extracts they will make.
  16. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    If its classified as a drug, it would have to undergo, at least, FDA testing in this country. If its not classified as a drug, then it's a free-for-all -- the wild, wild west, if you prefer. You could argue that the FDA testing would not be sufficient, and it may not be. But at least, it is a higher quality of testing than you get in most places.

    I'm sure that someone is looking at it closely at least in Indonesia. But forgive me if I remain skeptical, at least until their results are replicated by labs in other places. It's not the fact that it's in Indonesia, just the fact that that's how science works. One study is never ever sufficient. You always want as much independent verification as is possible. If the results cannot be replicated to a sufficient extent, then it's possible that the original study was faulty (and that happens more times than you might guess). People make mistakes. And people sometimes erroneously get the results that they intend to get, even without meaning to.
  17. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    I wonder what countries like China would do with this plant? You know, what with the strict population control/family size limitation laws in place.
  18. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    They would add it to the water supply. That is my guess.
  19. lccorp2

    lccorp2 Member

    Yeah, as far as I understand it, FDA testing is going to be the biggest scientific hurdle for this drug to cross before it reaches the US of A.If I remember correctly, even if a drug has been tested overseas, it still has to go through the FDA's entire approval process all over again before it can be allowed to market.

    As to safety and reliability, the drug is slated out to come out sometime soon in Indonesia and my Indon classmates are planning to try it themselves when they go back on break either this year or next (depending on exact market date), so if there's massive contraceptive failure someone's going to notice. Maybe not through official media (the country is pretty damn corrupt, and my friends admit it themselves) but word-of-mouth is going to out. There are already plenty of US, Australian and European tourists who visit this region on holiday (mainly Thailand's beaches and Indonesia's tourist islands); I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys tried to take some back home for self-medication.

    That might work in the urban areas, but in the rural areas where their perceived problem is worst and where people get their water from rivers or wells, might not be as effective.

    "Don't drink the water. They put something in it to make you forget. I can't even remember how I got here." - Citizen in train station, Half-Life 2.
  20. Balhichou

    Balhichou Member

    Isn't laptop-on-knees a good contraception too ?

    If it is, I'm sure I'll never use such a pill.
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