New Traps

Discussion in 'You Have To Name The Expansion Pack' started by Hot-D, Jun 9, 2012.

  1. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Wait, I thought you said it did 200 health of damage in one hit? That's a 1 hit kill to any character class possible.
    I'm a bit confused.

    Regardless, if it does more than 100 damage if you accidentally hit it, it needs a big nerf. Especially combining with the fact it can exponentially spawn, and that in order to disarm it reliably, you'd probably need max tinkering, Perception, Archaelogy, Smithing, Burglary, and 3 items with 2 trap affinity on them.

    I'm not sure exactly, but on that floor, it probably would need that much trap affinity.

    If anything, a nerf to their damage, and their ability to multiply 100 times faster than Tribbles crossbred with rabbits. :)

    This, this, a billion times this. I'm really tired of the roguelike argument.
    Just because they're hard doesn't excuse overkill traps. :)

    Not even Nethack would do this. :) Heck, Slash'EM's creator would say that's a bit silly. :)

    Regardless, this is basically Baby's first roguelike, and if you die to something that is not your fault in a roguelike, it's not a good thing, it's a bad thing. The first rule of Roguelikes is that the player should die a lot, but only to things that are his fault.
    This is one reason why I make backup of my saves for ADOM. Just in case the game crashes.
  2. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    He got hit with 200 damage because he stepped on 10 of them at the same time: the traps themselves require 16:trap_level: to disable safely, and deal 20:dmg_conflagratory:10:dmg_piercing:. On the 15th floor, you likely have 6-7:resist_conflagratory: and 3-10 (depending on armor) :resist_piercing:.
  3. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    Recursive functions in DredmorScript are a bad time. You know recursive curse? It used to really be recursive. Crashed the game every time. There were ... other dalliances with the notion. None ended particularly well.

    Well, in this case I didn't read the fine print clearly enough on the scripting when I pasted it in and it seems we got a trap that makes traps. Sorry!

    I've killed the self-spawning entirely for the next release.
  4. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Wait, eruptors in general or gone, or the dragonsbreath eruptor can't make more eruptors? :S
  5. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    I'm making it so nothing spawns more eruptors.
    Kaidelong and FaxCelestis like this.
  6. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining it.
    I really misunderstood him. My apologies.
  7. zaratustra

    zaratustra Member

    Shame on Gaslamp for not making the script system solve the halting problem.
  8. Kaoschan

    Kaoschan Member

    Here for all of your pleasure

    a dragon eruptor on a dLev12 monster zoo.


    if a monster walks over it it may take up to 10sec for the turn to finish due to the traps going off like crazy ... and i'm on 2x animation speed.
  9. Kaidelong

    Kaidelong Member

    Just wanted to say that this is a pretty bad assumption to make. I've had characters down on DL12 that barely had any :trap_level: at all.
    r_b_bergstrom likes this.
  10. Loswaith

    Loswaith Member

    I was refering to each tile, apoligies for not clarifying that, given the game does everything on a per tile basis I didnt think that needed clarifying (my mistake). The point I was making is the other types of caltrops end up on the spots that the eruptor doesnt so it can look like it's everywhere (though thats moot now as it doesnt spawn eruptors anymore).

    Rogue-Like is meant to be difficuilt, its the hardest difficuility in the game was my point on it being a rogue-like game, so its a game designed on games where the point is for it to be highly challenging, and being on the hardest difficulity. Complaining that the game is hard at that point seems moot to me.

    Just about every game I've played on dredmore I've gotten enough trap skills to see let alone disarm any of the traps (with the exception of the first few floors), unless I've specifically avoided getting it. It's not something that just shows up that traps are suddenly in the game when you hit the high levels, they are their from the first level so you have a huge amount of time to build up to make sure you can see and/or disarm them.

    IE. Its an exponentially growing trap that is reasonably easily avoidable for a player.

    You wont however get any argument on the factor that it will be set off and subsequently kill off heaps of enemies (which have to be disamed their way through), though I'd prefer to see that than enemies not setting off traps that the player hasnt setup themselves.

    Though for the traps being behind a vending machine that is something that could happen to any traps, not just this one, so not particularly an issue with the caltrop trap.
  11. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Yes, Going Rogue is meant to be difficult. It is the hardest difficulty.
    But you're kind of going off the assumption that this game is supposed to only be played on the hardest difficulty, and that roguelikes are all supposed to be uber-hard.
    Sure it's not supposed to be a cakewalk, heck, I have trouble sometimes on Elvish Easy, but the game is not supposed to be as hard as other roguelikes.

    This game is not as hard as Nethack/Slash'Em. There's no reason for it to be close to as hard as those two.
    A trap that multiplies is a bad thing for any game, period.
    Most Roguelike authors will tell you this.
    From the creators of Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup, to the Nethack Dev team, to the creator of ADOM, to the creator of POWDER, and even Ivan.
    Even the creator of Omega would agree, and he made the hardest roguelike ever made, so much so that when the first person who finally beat it told his story, the creator made it harder. :) Released almost 20 years ago, has only been beaten 4 times maybe.

    The creator of Omega is welcome to post on this thread to tell me if he would agree or not, but I think he vanished from the face of the earth over a decade ago.
  12. mining

    mining Member

    Multiplying traps is awesome and I want an optional way to get them back! (ok I'll just change it myself :)) - though it would be nice if traps are by default friendly to monsters and need to be playerset to kill them.
  13. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    You can certainly mod them back in. I'm sure someone will. Gaslamp, however, won't be held responsible for the stability of any game that has recursively trapping traps involved!
  14. Ringwraith

    Ringwraith Member

    I too, encountered the wonderous recursive caltrops, and it was hilarious.
    Night of the recursive caltrops.png

    Honestly, it was funnier than dangerous, even though I was taking the full 20 fire damage, provided I didn't try and walk through it. I gave up and found another way around after hitting a brick wall with my dinky trap affinity. This was caused by a monster zoo pursuing me over it, I'd seen them before, but didn't realise quite how bad it would get.
    However, it turns out it's a hilarious way to even the old odds against Dredmor.
  15. Hot-D

    Hot-D Member

    Well thanks. When I created this thread, I didn't expect it to have any result. I love indie games.
    Gonna launch DoD again for the next update.
  16. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Sorry for the spam, but I have to post this here:

          Commercial games want you to win.
            NetHack doesn't care if you win or lose.
            Slash'em wants you DEAD.
    Commercial games cheat for you and against the monsters:
            The unarmed orc falls to the ground, dying.  "Whirling
            Blades of Doom... backpack", he gasps.  "Barbecue
            sauce... left pocket."
    NetHack plays fair between you and the monsters:
            The orc wins the race to the Whirling Blades of Doom. 
            He seizes it, grins, and whirls it at you.  You fall
            to the ground, dying.  Your last sight is of the
            orc reaching for his left pocket.
    Slash'em cheats against you and for the monsters:
            Staggering and more than half dead, you advance to
            the slain monster.  If you can use the Whirling
            Blades of Doom against the rest of the pack, you
            just might live through this.
            ...There is no weapon at the corpse.  The Whirling
            Blades of Doom are an intrinsic attack, not a
            separate weapon.
            The next platypus in line opens its bill.  This one
            is a fire breather.  Thoroughly barbecued, you fall
            to the ground, dying.  When you hit the ground,
            something breaks in your left pocket.
            Commercial game developers are sometimes interviewed
    by gaming magazines and shown in publicity shots. 
            The NetHack Dev Team is faceless and mysterious. 
            The Slash'em Dev Team kills and eats interviewers and
    photographers.  All those tentacles are hard to fit into a
    photograph, anyway.
            Commercial game developers advertise their games widely.
            The NetHack Dev Team only speak to announce a new release.
            J. Ali Harlow is the Voice of Saur... I mean, of the
    Slash'em Dev Team.
            Commercial game developers never release their source
            NetHack releases all source code.  Players "source
    dive":  read the code.
            Slash'em releases its source code.  Odd:  I don't
    recall ever reading a posting from a Slash'em source diver.
    Something must happen if you read the Slash'em code.  Some-
    thing that precludes ever posting again....
            To get support for a commercial games, you can go to
    the company which made the game.  The advice will be good.
            To get support for NetHack, you can go to the newsgroup
    and ask other people who play the game.  The advice is not
    always good.
            To get advice for my Slash'em Valkyrie, I could go to
    Eva R. Myers.  Unfortunately, she's on the same land mass as
    J. Ali Harlow.  Conclusion:  she was killed and eaten years
    ago, and it's Ali at the keyboard, pretending to be her.  Or
    she is one of THEM, right down to the tips of her tentacles.
    (If she advises me to buy barbecue sauce, I'm moving to
    Australia!  Err, OK, maybe not Austalia.  I know:  Transyl-
    vania!  That should be relatively safe.)
            Does garlic work?  How about silver bullets?  No?
    Well, how DO we defend ourselves?  And why did someone mail
    me this bottle of Wostershire sauce?
      No tentacled monstrosities were harmed in the making of this
      post.  Darn!
    Rob "slashed by Slash'em" Ellwood 
    That was from here:
  17. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Obviously, the creator of Slash'Em is really Cthulhu. :)
    OmniNegro likes this.
  18. Tycho

    Tycho Member

    Besides, they're fun. Nothing like stacking a dozen assorted nasty traps on a tile and luring a nasty over it to make you giggle and gaze lovingly at that high :trap_level: score.

    seriously, rogue supremacy forever :D
    Kazeto likes this.
  19. ploki122

    ploki122 Member

    I can see why you are all rage-y about the recursive trap problem... but I think none of you actually grazed the true problem it leads to... What I mean by that is how i managed to win about 200k xp in a closed room with nothing but 1 dragonbreath caltrop eruptor (I wasn't sure i could handle Dredmor and wanted my achievement for armor skill... Managed to go from lv29 to 33). Basically, by stacking 10 traps in a single square i would pop 6 of them. That would yield me (according to odds) 14.8 traps (1.8*6 + 4) so unlimited eruptors, but also a neat ~7452 xp (~1242 per eruptor). And since I had prayed the diggle of fertility, I had 150-200 hp, with traps dealing me 14 damages each time they sprang I never died (It would have required all traps to explode and go haywire, and even then i might have survived) and I only needed 1 dire sandwich to go back to full health (and I had quite a lot of them stacked thanks to perception). To make things even more broken, my build gave me ~20 trap affinity (maxed Perception + tinkering + smithing and a couple of trap boosting items) which means i never got hit more than expected. Oh and did I say I had ~70 eruptor and ~200 of each caltrops by the end. Still died against Dredmor because i underestimated him.

    Tl;dr : It is possible to have more than 16 trap affinity meaning you have endless gold/xp/traps
    Kazeto and OmniNegro like this.
  20. Hot-D

    Hot-D Member

    I just wanted to say Captech VI's death has finally been avenged by Captech XIV the Great.
    With no trap to deny me my total badassery anymore, I am now officially a total badass. Hell yeah!

    May this thread rest in peace. My work here is done.
    FaxCelestis likes this.