New Skillset: Rogue Cartography

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by LonePaladin, Sep 18, 2011.

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Does this work for you?

  1. Yes (please give praise in your comments)

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  2. No (please explain why)

    1 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. Needs Work (please give suggestions)

    3 vote(s)
    60.0%
  1. LonePaladin

    LonePaladin Member

    The Rogue Cartography skillset goes with the idea that a well-made map can give a dungeon explorer significant advantages... especially when he starts manipulating the map, and therefore the dungeon itself, to his own purposes.

    "Lord Dredmor forbade mapmaking when he took over the Dungeons of Doom. Like THAT's going to stop you."

    Tier 1: Metatarsal Echolocation — By forcefully planting your foot against a door and listening to the echo, you can determine the approximate number of creatures in the room beyond. Useful for finding monster zoos early. [Active use, targets closed doors. Gives a message roughly indicating how many monsters are in the next room. Cooldown 10 turns.]

    Tier 2: Translocational Orienteering — Your sense of location is unerring. While anyone can figure out where they are after being teleported, you can determine the destination *before* you go. You also have an innate sense of depth. [Passive. Shows links between teleporters, revealing both on the map as soon as you find one. In addition, when you find a staircase, the level above or below you shows the link; when you reach a new level, it should show a lot of up staircases.]

    Tier 3: Flat-Space Folding — Whoever said "the shortest distance between two points is a straight line" never thought of folding their map in half. This sort of logic really strains the parchment of reality, so don't overdo it. [Active use, targets a space 2-4 squares away on the other side of a wall. Teleports the character to the other space, which cannot be unexplored. Cooldown 20 turns.]

    Tier 4: Punch It! — Sometimes, the best map is no help in a bind. You punch a hole in your map with your pencil, showing everyone that you have a clear path to the next level down. [Active use, targets self. Teleports the character to a random spot on the next level down. Cooldown 40 turns.]

    Tier 5: Thinking With Hole-Punchers — You folded your map in half, then poked your pencil through it. Just step through the holes. What? It's on the map! [Active use, targets an unoccupied square. Creates a teleporter square, similar to the Satanic Displacement Glyphs, except they alternate between orange and blue, and are only linked to each other. Cooldown 40 turns to prevent rampant abuse.]

    Edits: Removed the tier 3 skill, but moved its description into Flat-Space Folding. Added Thinking With Hole-Punchers as a tier 5 skill. Moved Punch It! to tier 4, as its utility isn't nearly as rulebreaking as TWHP.
     
  2. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    Interesting idea -- I have kind of mixed feelings about it. I like it because it's creative. I also really like the Punch It skill -- in a couple of play-throughs I would have loved that skill (or hated it, depending on where it teleported me. I think, though, instead of making this a skill, that these effects be add these individually as, maybe, scrolls.

    Also, rogue skills should not use mana, imho. None of them currently do.
     
  3. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    I really like your creativeness, but I feel it needs some work to be worth it.
    (btw agree with Haldurson, they shouldn't use mana)

    #1: This skill would be pretty much worthless as you can close doors on monster zoos anyway. (Just stand on the sides when you open doors to be ready for an instant close)

    #2: Control teleport, good idea.

    #3: Why would you ever go back up stairs other than daring escapes? (others may say for a stash but I doubt even half the players use a stash)

    #4: I really like this idea.

    #5: This is cool but how many uses would it see? Assuming you just want to skip floors then this only saves some time. You'd use it once, twice?

    Basically as it is now I'd say "cool" but I would never drop one of my precious skill slots for it.
    I'd suggest something like letting you see shrines/anvils/monuments etc BEFORE you explore would be a useful bonus. (when all those are in minimap icons anyway, next update I think?)
    Don't really have any other suggestions right now but I'll think about it.
     
    IanExMachina likes this.
  4. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    I'd like:
    • Each level of the skill increases what you can see on an unexplored map
      • Level 1: Stairs
      • Level 2: Shops
      • Level 3: Shrines/Anvils
      • Level 4: Teleports
      • Level 5: Zoos
    • Spell that lets you summon an orange/blue teleporter tile (presumably by rubbing some grit off the map and noticing it's there or using crayons or something)
      • First time you cast it you get the orange tile, second time the blue, etc
      • Can only have one orange and one blue tile per dungeon level - your old ones get replaced by new ones
    I'd pay good money for a skill that lets me teleport back to a shop whenever I want and not have to search for one on every floor.
     
  5. Vykk Draygo

    Vykk Draygo Member

    I often find myself going back to previous shops. As an archaeologist, I go back to re-Krong once I unlock the skill. It happens often enough that it would be useful.

    That said, I really like the idea, but I don't think it has enough utility that I'd drop another skill for it.
     
  6. LonePaladin

    LonePaladin Member

    :p

    Okay, I can see this one being used, perhaps as a replacement for the 5th tier ability. How about this interpretation?

    Thinking With Hole-Punchers — You folded your map in half, then poked your pencil through it. Just step through the holes. What? It's on the map! [Active use, targets an unoccupied square. Creates a teleporter square, similar to the Satanic Displacement Glyphs, except they alternate between orange and blue, and are only linked to each other. Cooldown 40 turns to prevent rampant abuse.]

    In other news, I'll go along with the removal of the mana cost. I was just trying to add something to moderate potential abuse of the skill, but now I'm thinking that it might actually need something extra. Maybe increasing the range, but limiting it to a straight line along the grid. (This would make it easier to get across the map quicker.)

    Any suggestions for a better first-tier skill? I'm awfully proud of the idea, and worked so hard on the name! But I'm open to suggestion, honest.
     
  7. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Your first tier idea would basically be perfect if the feature/bug of closing doors instantly from the side didn't render it useless. If that was fixed then I would totally agree with it. Maybe if it let's you "hear" how many enemies there are in the room? Could be useful for more than just zoos.
     
  8. Derakon

    Derakon Member

    I do like the first-tier skill name. Unfortunately I have no suggestions for you.

    One thing to keep in mind for mapper skills is that I'd wager most players use the map to track which parts of the dungeon still need to be explored. Mapping an area without visiting it will screw with that.

    I'd also suggest making the tier-4 ability be tier-3, and losing the tier-3 ability entirely. Mostly because there's a lot of questions about where you'd end up after going up "through" a down staircase (which doesn't map to anywhere on the floor above). Use the tier-3 description though, because it rocks.
     
  9. LonePaladin

    LonePaladin Member

    That one might work. Maybe something vague:
    "Sounds clear." (0-2 critters)
    "Sounds a little crowded." (3-5)
    "Sounds like there's a party going on in there." (6+)
    "Sounds like you've stumbled on a convention." (Small zoo.)
    "It's quiet. TOO quiet." (Large zoo.)

    Okay, if we move Flat-Space Folding to #3 and swap descriptions, what would be a good 4th-tier skill? Most skills seem to be either 3 or 5 levels, and I wouldn't want to break the pattern.
     
  10. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    That actually, I assumed would be handled by using different graphics, such as a room dotted outline instead of the standard room outline, without the actual color of the room square filled in. It's something to keep in mind when implementing it, of course, so good that you mentioned it.

    I kind of agree with this, at least as the skill is now. I think it still might have potential though with some work. I will say that I do like the general concept.
     
  11. LonePaladin

    LonePaladin Member

    I've edited the original post, based on everyone's feedbag feedback. I may return the first skill to showing the walls, if it turns out that giving a 'ghost' on the minimap is feasible. The level-select skill has been removed, and its description given to Flat-Space Folding. The Portal reference has been given to the final tier, as it's far more useful than the 'skip to next level' skill.
     
  12. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Much better, but still needs...something that would make me drop a valuable skill for it. I'm not sure what, I'll keep thinking.
     
  13. Derakon

    Derakon Member

    How about an "X marks the spot" skill that lets you create new treasure chests? To avoid tedium it should be a passive that activates automatically when you enter a room for the first time and has a chance of uncovering a new chest. Or something along those lines. Explain it as pirates getting really, really lost and deciding "hell with it, we're burying the treasure here."
     
  14. LonePaladin

    LonePaladin Member

    That would have to be slightly tweaked to fit the theme. Maybe something like drawing an X on your map makes a chest appear. I'm trying to go with the idea of having a character exploit the dungeon just by making edits to his map, and having those affect 'reality'. Sort of like someone in a D&D game adding a door to the party's map, and trying to talk the DM into admitting that there's actually a door there.
     
  15. Derakon

    Derakon Member

    You should play Donjon sometime, which operates on a similar mechanic. That is, it's a roleplaying game set in a quantum mechanics-style uncertain universe, where nothing is determined until it is observed. Every time the players try to do something, they roll their ability at the task against the difficulty of the task, and get a number of successes or failures. For each success, they get to state a fact about the world related to that task ("Not only do I break the door down, but I pin the guards on the other side against the wall with it!"). For each failure, the DM gets to state a fact instead ("Not only did you fail to break the door down, but now the guards are awake and angry!"). Otherwise, depending on your group the DM may be largely limited to running NPCs. It can be a lot of fun, though our group also got really silly, really fast. My character was a 2/3rds troll, for example. What was the remaining 1/3rd? Nobody really knew for certain.

    As for Dredmor, maybe the ability could create a new door on a wall which leads to a secret treasure room? Which is on your map, so it must be there! That'd be a bit harder to make passive, though.