New Crafting menu is horrible and other things I've noticed.

Discussion in 'Realm of the Diggle Gods' started by DavidB1111, Dec 29, 2011.

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  1. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Just one note, the quest monsters are fixed in the latest hotfix -

    For now I basically suggest picking Viking Magic if you play a melee. No need to put any points in it, the first skill lets you one-shot everything on floor 1 and 2 (on DM anyway) so, it's a workaround for now.
  2. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    The hotfix works with steam? If I download it and replace the steam executable will I have problems later when patching? Does the fix add the monsters into the dungeon, or only monsters that are created post patch?

    I have had TONS of uncompleteable quests lately and I wondered what was wrong. I also noticed that I was very often getting 4 quest shrines per level where before it was at most 3.
  3. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    Actually, since a roguelike is designed with permadeath in mind you want the early game to include many RNG induced sudden deaths, as most of you time in game will be rolling a new character and dying in the first few levels.

    Later on you want deaths to occur by resource attrition. Slowly you run out of food or potions or all your gear gets cursed or what have you. Since you've invested time into your character it becomes frustrating if in the end game you can simply die by making a misstep. Where as dying on floor 1 to the first room is not a big deal.
    brobbeh and Essence like this.
  4. Repulsion

    Repulsion Member

    I think it's fine that the Ectoplasm's are a bit resistant to swords. I agree, they should be less resistant, that seems clear, but having situations and enemies that you have to adapt to makes a game dynamic and fun (although over-doing it is even worse, nothing is so bad as automatically losing a game since you don't have that one resistance and have no way to get it).

    I personally disagree with your argument that slimes should be weak to piercing damage. Unless you are thinking balloon-type slimes (which the developers obviously aren't), a sword going through a slime will... well, just go through it. Bashing and cutting damage on the other hand can carve chunks off and separate the slime, etc. and onwards.

    I also disagree with you saying that this game isn't really a rogue-like, due to it not having ASCII graphics. Rogue-likes are primarily characterized by difficulty, replayability, permadeath, and tile-based movement. ASCII graphics are more of a game-dependent thing, not a genre-dependent one. Also, your calls asking people to stop making the game harder seems quite wrong (at least personally). The game is undoubtedly unbalanced a bit, yes. Elvish difficulty should be easy, yes (at least compared to Dwarfish and Rogue). But please stop saying that you know how the game should be, that you know how rogue-likes work, that the game is 'unbalanced' because people apparently keep asking for it to be harder, etcetera. The first few levels should be easy, yes, but one major thing about rogue-likes is that the difficulty is... mixed, I suppose. There will sometimes be that hard monster on level 1, or that cursed artifact. In DoD, there are evil chests and side-quests. In fact, DoD does not contain much of this at all compared to some other rogue-likes, but at least it has some. Completely flat difficulty progression doesn't belong in a rogue-like, at least compared to almost all the other rogue-likes I know.

    Overall, it seems that rebalancing is needed, at least a bit. But it seems that a decent bit of your problems are not due to game design, but to personal preference and interpretation.

    Also, about the new crafting interface. I personally like the interface, but there are problems. The ease at which you can accidentally craft something which you did not want to craft is very apparent. My current biggest problem is the way recipes are handled. I do agree, being able to craft anything without knowing of the recipe is OP. However, only being able to craft weapons which are quite weak compared to late-game standards without finding a recipe that has an extremely high chance of being a recipe that you cannot and do not want to craft anyways absolutely does not work either.

    Whether this problem is amended by one only being able to find recipes pertaining to one's chosen crafting disciples, finding a recipe every time one levels up a crafting skill, or gaining access to a skill (perhaps at the end of each crafting tree) which lets you find a recipe (with a very large cooldown, though), I do not care.
    BDSb likes this.
  5. Hey, This is from a new users perspective....

    I played Rogue like a madman as that was the first game I ever purchased, and the ONLY game my dad's old computer would play, it was a GLORIOUS game, you guys captured that perfectly IMO. That game was hard as hell, I never beat it in all my life, and even when I, later in life, took a hex editor to it, and changed all the damage from weapons, and monsters, and I could 1-shot everything eventually I got to some monster that killed me, it might have been a Medusa or something, I dont even remember.

    So far, I will only say, that Level 1 dungeon is WAY harder than a Level 1 Rogue dungeon, but really you cant compare levels between this and Rogue, because in this game, level 1 is more like the first 8 floors in Rogue at LEAST.

    I chose the same build I always do as a first character, Melee, I picked Axe, Berderk, Assassin, Shield, Armor, Smith, and the dodge based one, (I played it for the first time last night so I dont remember everything) I found a ridiculously strong crossbow that can 1 shot everything, and I bought some bloody axe I got my axe tree up to the Spinning axe attack, and I put one point into the assisn tree as it gave me some good boosts. before I got the spinning axe attack I was 1-shotting everything on level 1.

    The named monsters were more than a little threatening (I played on Dwarvish Moderation) but I managed to survive floor 1 and clear it, played a tiny bit on floor 2 and the monsters there are clearly stronger, but Im not far enough into it.

    I didnt see a crafting tutorial, but I finally figured out how to get the crafting menu up, it does take some time to go through everything, but I can see that a wheel mouse update would basically solve a lot of the concerns.

    As far as balance, I enjoyed level 1 on Dwarvish Moderation, I did die on my first toon, but I wasnt frustrated or anything, it seemed to be on pace with the original Rogue that I loved so much. I definitely would not like dying on level 2 with this character because I like the gear I got so far.

    My only difficulty for a first time user, was not knowing what to do with my inventory, I got a ton of crafting stuff, a bunch of potions and mushrooms, and I am too scared to use any of the consumables as I have no idea what they will do, this was true in Rogue, you needed to use an identify scroll to know if that potion was going to kill you or not, but I really hate getting rid of all that stuff to make room for new, but I dont know what the mushrooms or potions do (I plan on browsing here to find out)

    My point of all this, was that as a fresh user, things felt like they should, I imagine getting used to the game one way, and then having it changed, it might seem more difficult or unbalanced, but for me, I feel like the game plays as I would expect. Of course I still have a lot more time to spend on it, so my opinion may change, but this is genuinely a first impression.
  6. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Um, Jhff, not even Nethack is that harsh. :) Okay, maybe Omega is, with the Triffids, but still. not many people want to play a game if they keep dying really fast due to RNG based meanness. :)

    Repulsion, you don't understand my point. A Roguelike would not have graphics if it to be considered a True roguelike. My apologies for not making that clear.
    Yes, this game does somewhat qualify as a Roguelike because of the replayability, and Permadeath, etc.
    Also, no, there's nothing wrong with me stating that the game needs balance, and that people need to stop claiming the game is too easy.
    I have never said my word should be international law, and none should question me, but I have played over 3 dozen different Roguelikes over a decade, I know how they work. I've helped out on one of them. I've sent nice messages to the creators of some of them, I've had nice conversations on Rec.Games.Roguelike.Angband back in the day.
    Trust me, I know how Roguelikes are supposed to be. If you really want me to, I will track down every roguelike I played, list them, and every person I communicated with, and have them talk to you, personally about me. But that might take a month. I've talked with Dark God, of T-O-M-E, I've talked with Valis of Newangband which became Portalis or something like that.

    Just because I didn't make Angband all those years ago doesn't mean I don't know how Roguelikes work. :)

    Really? you think Bashing a slime will kill it? No, it will do nothing at all. Slashing and piercing will cut through a slime and kill it. Seriously, what happens when you slam a mace into a pool of water? The water explodes everywhere. That's what happens when you hit a slime with a mace weapon.
    Also, I have not once heard of a game where slimes are not resistant to crushing/bashing damage. And weak against slashing, or not resistant to it, until this game.
    And Slashing is from Swords too, by the way. I wouldn't complain about them being strong against crossbow bolts. :)

    They aren't skeletons magically enchanted, you know. They don't deserve resistance to slashing. :)
    Okay, I just checked the D&D wikis, Gelatinous cubes, which are slimes, have the following resistances. Blindsight 60 ft., immunity to electricity, ooze traits, transparent
    Ooze traits are the following,

    None of them have a resistance to slashing/piercing or a weakness to crushing damage.
    D&D trumps all others. :)
    I will use that Hotfix as soon as I figure out how.
    At the moment, I have nearly 25 AA from Epic pants, and the Magentronic armor which makes me almost immune to everything but Arctic blast spammers and fire bombs. Need those resistances more than anything else now.

    Daddys little helper, it's always nice to hear from a brand new player of this amazing game.
    Glad you're having fun, and not getting too frustrated.
    My best advice to you, if you see the ectoplasms, run.
  7. Can you run from monsters? I mean I realize I can keep pace, but how do you get away? Guess I never tried it for distance running :D

    And yeah, this game is just too fun!! Glad I could get it working for me (Dial up at home, so I had to figure out how to make Steam play offline permanently) The original Rogue, if you have played it, stands the test of time with the ASCII "Graphics" and is still playable today, this game however I am looking forward to playing for a LONG LONG time, games like this, if they are beatable, they lose their replay value some, especially in the case of Rogue where you cant reroll a different character, its always the same one, I like the various difficulty levels here, and I have played some very good games recently, GREAT games even, and I honestly cannot think of the last time I was genuinely excited to get back to a game, I mean I was looking forward to it, sure, but not like this, this one I am DYING to get back home from work.
  8. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    From the SRD:


    Agreed. But perhaps you should look at it again.

    Close the door. Monsters can't open doors.
    BDSb likes this.
  9. zaratustra

    zaratustra Member

    the ooze monsters don't behave like real oozes.
  10. Thanks! I didnt even try closing doors after opening them.

    Also in Rogue, hitting slimes with slashing weapons would also split them, which I always thought was cool
  11. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Thank you, Zartathusta.
    As for the wiki, don't know how I didn't notice that.

    Regardless, seems silly that blunt weapons do any damage either. Considering smashing an ooze seems to make as much sense as smashing a pool of water. Seriously...
    At least Gelatinous cubes don't have any resistance. So, there.

    Regardless, I'd prefer it if they didn't have such insanely high resistances. 2 to 4 on the first 4 levels would be fair.
    I'm all the way down to floor 10 now, and doing a ton of random damage from blasting to crushing to fire to almost all others.
    I have 32 AA, enough fire and cold resistance to resist most fire/cold attacks. I think I'm going to finally win this game.
    Apparently, calling the crafting menu horrible is the secret way to win this game. :)

    And well, if Rogue had them split for hitting them, fair enough.
    I'm still saying it doesn't make any sense that splattering the oozes everywhere is going to do anything to damage it.
    But this is a game, not real life. :)
  12. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    David, this game isn't that hard either. So far I am on my first play through of the expansion (ok I did one roll with all the new skills to see what had changed), but anyway I'm playing a noob build. Mace, shield, armorer, berserker, big game hunter, dodge, and assasination. Right now all my gear is uber and because of the extra slots the game is even easier. I'm on DL 10 and almost to dredmor. (the lever that triggers evil chests is a godsend).

    I kind of wish I would have rolled something more, err, robust to try out the expansion content like dual staff psionics. But so far the game really isn't that random (I suspect the content will keep getting harder but my gear is close to capped). I'd give myself 70% odds of finishing dredmor on a single roll. The point is, dying on DL1 because of terrible drops or and out of depth enemy on the first level is par for roguelikes in my estimation. This game is even easier because you don't have to worry about identifying anything. You aren't going to drink a potion and die or put on an amulet of strangulation.

    Of course the early game is going to be harder. As a caster you don't have spells yet. As a melee you start naked and are reliant on drops. It's ok, replaying the first 2 minutes of the game isn't a big deal.

    Anyway, just wanted to say the game feels a lot more polished. I'd like to see more of the skills be useful. I never even bother to activate 90% of the skills I have. Why click shield bash? The biggest flaw is most skills are useless and just taken for the passive stats they provide.
  13. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    I agree, the game is more polished. And you're right, the game isn't amazingly hard.
    However, I'd prefer it if it kept that not too hard instead of changing any more.

    I've gotten really good Uber-gear too.
    However, without it, it's a whole another ball of wax.
    And maybe replaying the first few minutes isn't that bad, all I know is ADOM doesn't throw out of depth monsters on the first few floors. And it's a decently hard Rogue Like.
  14. 123stw

    123stw Member

    I actually agree with David on this one. Dredmor was fun for me back at 1.05 precisely because I can beat GR in 2 - 3 hours at level 13ish. Now it just feels like I have to "work" my way there, from hidden crafting to all the additional filler on dodger, burglary, magic training, etc, to the changes in wand lore and spell casting cost. Every skill tree requires actually investment because of the fillers, so early level becomes longer and requires more caution.

    Thing is, the whole is greater than the sum of it's parts. Most fillers are "harmful" not because they offer no utility, but because they delay getting the core skills that completes the build. These delays cause far more harm than any supplement those fillers can provide.
  15. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I guess for me the game feels faster because I feel like with the extra item slots, the new gear, and the evil chests everywhere I'm not needing to take any crafting or deal with item management. So even if crafting was the same as it was, it wouldn't be needed. On top of that I would clear every level so the 'no time to grind' option has made the game a lot faster. And with big game hunter I get tons and tons of food which is awesome so resource management seems a lot more lenient. On top of that enemies seem more threatening in the right way, making the game more interesting early on.

    For me the game is more fun. This expansion addressed a lot of major problems imo.

    I'll try some crafting next to see how bad it is now I guess. Wand lore looks really cool though now.
  16. 123stw

    123stw Member

    Well certainly there are new skills that make this game "lol wut?" at this point, like taking vegan on a mage.....

    It's just a lot of old skills that used to be good got nerfed due to the fillers.
  17. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Thank you, 123stw, those are my sentiments exactly.
    The main reason I like Smithing and Archaelogy is because of how nice that combo is. The Krong Ritual and all. :)
    Yes, the Archaeology filler is random, and fairly pointless since it acts as a stunning/minor damage spell.
    And it doesn't even tell you that in the description, you literally have to cast it to figure out what the hell it does.
    That's bad design, if you think about it. :)

    I'm also surprised at how uncommon the Horadric Lutefisk cube is for me, mostly because it's totally useless to even attempt to get close to 500 lutefisk for an item with the max bonuses.
    I don't care what people tell me, until that's changed to be extremely powerful, it's totally useless of a change.
    That was a fairly weak way of nerfing it.

    Especially with the other additions in this game.
    You need all the power you can get.

    As for the slimes, due to how much they show up, it really isn't a good idea to have them absorb so much damage from anything but crushing, because you are crippling any melee class, unless you get lucky as hell and get the sword that does existentialism damage on the first floor. :)

    Idealy, you would make it so they don't even spawn in zoos. Same with resurrecting Mask people. They're a bit more powerful, just for that spamming they do.
    If anything, a nerf so they can only resurrect a monster once would be a good idea. And that they can't resurrect each other.
    Make them more like Arch-Viles from Doom 2. They can't raise themselves from the dead. So, why can Masks do

    I like this game, but maybe I should complain more. Nicholas told me to. :)
    Well, he said, yell louder...but still.
  18. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    Well, I just beat the expansion GRPD. Thoughts so far...

    1) The game is beatable, without any crafting, with a pure sword and board build. It's nice to see a non metagaming (something a person would build without outside knowledge of the game) build play the game. There were some close calls too.
    2) You hit critical mass with uber gear about mid game with the evil chests. Wait what happened to uberchests?
    3) I didn't care about corruption as it hit my crossbow every time it seemed, and gear was replaced fairly often anyway. I had a spare weapon/crossbow and 3 uber amulets at the end.
    4) God of fertility blessing is amazing. Knocked me up to enough regen I gained hp every round + it gives you regen when hit.
    5) I had so many resistances at the end and consumables saved up dredmor folded easy, but that's how it should be.
    6) Hardest levels were 1-7-9-10. The rest, even the expansion, were cake walks.
    7) My favorite enemy was the invisible wisp that would warp away and cast spells. I wish they'd have lower life but do more damage. A bunch of the ranged champs were annoying but didn't pose a threat at all. Now the djinn fizz, that's probably the hardest champ in the game...
    8) Love the new AI/enemies.
    9) Also love 'no time to grind'.
    10) Big game hunter is a fantastic line!

    I worry about how strong a good build would be though. For what I played the challenged seemed fair. Probably took about 10 hours of play or so over the course of 4 days to beat I think. I cleared everything, zoos were a pain. I think I beat the game at level 28 or so?


    1) zoos bug out if you log off in the middle or leave the level. It can take a really long time to clear a big zoo as melee especially if you have to retreat a couple of times to do it.
    2) Quests seem bugged. Even fully exploring all the levels, I probably was only able to finish maybe half the quests.
  19. There probably is a bug with the zoos, I actually DID die on my 2nd character clearing the level 6 zoo on permadeath, and for some reason I had a save still there, it was my mistake I died too, I allowed myself to get surrounded and then they dropped a bunch of AOE that stacked up, prior to that my health bar was staying max, just with my regen that I had from gear.

    Also agree on the quests, though I dont know if I somehow just didnt get the item I needed from either the questgiver (perhaps full inventory when I took the quest) and therefore I could not do the necessary step. I havent tried abandoning the quests yet, so perhaps if I abandon it (click the checkbox) the game may let me pick it up again.

    As for the earlier comment on the Lutefix cube, that thing is AWESOME, for me its an extra slot as you dont need to put the lutefix back in your bag, anything on the ground that I dont need or wont bother selling, I just drag/drop to the cube (I keep the cube open on my screen) any ingots I get, I tinker those to bolts, and drop them in the cube if I have a good supply, anything that you can grind/tinker/press that you wont need, multiplies in number, so if you get a reagent to make iron for example that 1 item turns into 2 ingots, then you turn those 2 ingots into probably 12 bolts and you got 12 lutefix off the 1 item. I sometimes can pull in over 100 lutefix in between shrines.

    I also think corruption is bugged (always got my crossbow) and I dont like that mechanic either, It did get my axe a few times too, its seems that perhaps when you load into a floor or something that it sets which item gets corrupted, because it ALWAYS gets that same item, I was pissed when my axe got corrupted and I lost my 2 HP regen bonus off it, I crafted the Pink Guitar axe, kronged it and it got a +2HP regen bonus, and that got corrupted off shortly after. I wouldnt mind the corruption at all if it targeted other things, but deteriorating the same item over and over, I guess the strategy would be to equip a different axe if it is always going to get corrupted, until you need to fight, non corrupting enemies, but Im lazy :D

    I lost a belt somehow, didnt see it get swiped but it probably was Kleptoed I kill all enemies and did not get it back, that seemed fair enough, I rarely get things swiped. But I did like that belt a TON, was swapping between that and a trap disarming belt (which BTW, disarming traps is VERY nice on the XP gains) I would also disarm traps and the ones that you can pick up after, those got lutefixed

    My character is level 16 on the lvl7 dungeon (already cleared the zoo) this is only my second roll, my first one died miserably on lvl1 dungeon, and technically this guy died already, if he dies again and the save is still there, I will delete them all and start over, permadeath makes these games more fun, so as far as game balance, my second roll, died at lvl14/15 on the lvl6 dungeon zoo, to my own mistake, same EXACT guy, cleared that zoo no problem without even using any food seconds later after restoring the save. Shows you how unforgiving these can be, and also that a lot of the deaths can be avoided.

    Great game, loving every minute of it
  20. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Hey, Daddyslittlehelper, the only reason the Lutefisk cube is worthless, is because they upped the requirements to get a "good" item from the Lutefisk shrine to 500.
    So, yes, getting 100 is fairly easy, but you need 500 to make the game treat the item that you get as if you used 100 before the change. That's a horrible jump in cost for zero change in the output between 100 originally, and 500 now.

    That was a bad design decision, and it should be changed a bunch. Otherwise Lutefisk shrines are basically useless.
    Since the cost is too much for too little.

    Belts can not be stolen unless you put it on your quickbar menu. Those damn Kleptoblobbies can steal anything there. Also, they might still be bugged. So, don't put gear on there. Put it in your pack.

    I'm fairly close to beating this game. I'm glad to know this can be beaten by melee, with blade, but I'd like to know how anyone can deal with the Ectoplasms and whatnot on level 2+.

    I'm sorry, but they take only 3 damage from a sword, and that's all crushing, somehow, so, I'd like to know, since it takes 7 hits to kill them on Floor 1 when they show up out of depth, on Elvish Easy, how do you handle an enemy that takes vastly longer to kill than anything else on that floor bar none, with a sword/axe. Especially on Going Rogue, where they have like 3 times the health or something. IF they have 40 health, that's 13 hits. That's bad game design right there.

    Because honestly, for the life of me, I can't think of how a good strategy for them would work, without relying on blind luck. And that's a bad strategy. :) Also, Viking Magic counts as magic. If you use mana, it's magic. :)
    Also, Making the player put a point in burglary to gain the 3 lockpicks is not a good nerfing of the skill. It's not that over-powered to begin with considering chests can destroy the item inside them if you don't pick the lock.

    Plus, you don't even start out with lockpicks, which is really retarded...

    PLEASE, Gaslampgames, please fix the fact that corruption monsters can corrupt you if you dodge their attacks. :( What the hell, man...

    Also, sleeping monsters can dodge bolts. No, not that!
    Wait, you gave Lord Dredmor a corrupting attack? Isn't that a bit silly. He's the final boss. That seems a bit much. Also, you gave him about a 99.999% block chance. He doesn't have a shield. :) Remove his high block chance and his corruption. At least the damage he does in melee is mostly okay at 20 damage.
    Also, the Pectinous Tesseracts on the 15th floor do a lot of damage that's nearly impossible to resist, and always hits, apparently. Even with 73 block.

    Either that's a bug, or they're supposed to always hit and do 29 damage that cannot be resisted unless you cheat somehow. :)

    Well, 3 tries later, and stone bolts hemming him in so he couldn't spam his attacks every split second, and plenty of arrows, and a golden crossbow, who's enchantment doesn't work as well against him, I'm not surprised though, :) , and he's dead.
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