New Crafting menu is horrible and other things I've noticed.

Discussion in 'Realm of the Diggle Gods' started by DavidB1111, Dec 29, 2011.

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  1. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Okay, I haven't played this game for awhile, but I do like the expansion, but what in the heck were you guys thinking with the new crafting menu setup? I have to scroll down the entire selection to find them, then I have to click on said item to craft it. Ugh.

    Why can't I get back the old one. This new one is so unwieldly. I mean, really, what's the point here?
    You can't select an item directly, you can only scroll down. That's really really bad.

    I mean, it takes longer to craft an item this way then placing them in the right spots in the earlier versions, by hand...
    I really don't see the need for this change at all.
    I got used to the 2 items as a result of crafting in all skill levels, due to people exploiting it, but this. I don't know...

    And what's with the new added skills making the game harder to do anything with? I have to put a point in Burglary to get anything useful besides random free items from vending machines.
    I mean, I'm sorry, but forcing the player to level grind just to make a character with the same skills as they used to have is a bad idea.

    I don't understand all the new additions here. :( I liked this game before because I could max out my archaelogy and my Smithing before worrying about putting more than a few points in all my other skills. Now I basically have to put 3 points in artful Dodging just to get past glitchy areas where there are bars in your way now, instead of an open area. You know, the Gargoyle acid traps that are so overpowered? that lead down to a good item :)

    You can't break down bars, you can't do anything with them, so...yeah.

    Anyhow, I like it, but I have the feeling you guys are trying to make the game harder even on Elvish easy, and that's not good game design...

    Also, Magic Potatoe heads fire that missle, and you can't tell what damage it does to you. Because there's no display of the damage in the message log, and the damage it does goes by way too fast to read. Also, it seems to do a decently high damage. On the first floor.

    Okay, that makes no sense. blobbies cannot be leeched from. Congratulations, you made playing a vampire totally impossible. Please fix it. Yeah, I just died, because I could not ever regenerate life. Thanks for making the game almost literally impossible with a vampire class. no, really, now you can't get life back from anything but diggles and battys. Zombies and mummys, and deths, and anything else will not give me life. Please fix this horrible addition that makes vampires impossible to play as.

    Also, the ectoplasmic thingy apparently has a massive damage resistance against everything but crushing. That is really bad. I'm sorry, but um, they do way too much damage to do only 3 damage to them with two swords.
    Not to mention, in almost every game with resistances, jellys/blobs/slimes all have crushing resistances. How do you crush goo? :) They're weak against piercing/slashing.
  2. wRAR

    wRAR Member

    Most things should go here as they are not related to the DLC.
  3. DerpTyrant

    DerpTyrant Member

    This crafting system is exactly the same as before, except if you knew the recipes beforehand it takes few seconds of your hands. The most important part is, you can't craft items without having a recipe, which I think is awesome.

    I don't know what are you talking about regarding skills. More skills, more fun.
    Vampirism is OP already as it is. So what if you can't leech from blobbies. There are 99 other enemies you can leech from.

    A monster has a resistance against certain weapon? So what. Adapt to it. I'm playing a dualwielding swordsman on GR and I never had any problems with them.

    To me it just seems that you should learn to play and not blame it on the game :)
    Also, on what difficulty are you playing? Elvish is extremely easy and Dwarven shouldn't pose a challenge either.

    Sorry, no spellcheck on mobile ...
  4. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    1) They should really bring back the old crafting system. The new "no time to grind" option really kills crafting anyway. You might take alch for pots or tinkering for arrows, but you can forget about getting the mats for smithing. Why rush a crafting skill when you'll just get the stuff later on anyway and now you also have to deal with finding a recipe? At least wandsmithing is pretty awesome, and with tomes crossbows/throwing is very useful (you can swap out your weapons for duel tomes and plink away). Additionally, now that there is no weapon penality, you don't have to worry about crafting the right weapon.

    2) Vampirism isn't worth it now. Later on, vamp couldn't keep up anyway and you had to take a second form of healing like alch or fungal (or you were pairing it with psionics/staves or necro/unarmed). Now I think you should just skip vamp. Big game hunter is pretty awesome. You can have like 70 steaks by DL3.

    3) Weapon skills, these feel sort of gimp now. Unless you are doubling up on the bonus they really don't add much. I'd like to see some more passive combat stats added to each of them. Mace is an exception with the procs, but the rest seem really weak IF you are running a sword and board build. Sword and board is really sub optimal in this game sadly.

    3) Tomes make archery/throwing more viable. Tomes are pretty awesome.

    4) Game is a little harder with more ranged champs and altogether far less predictable. I like it. In other areas it seems to have gotten easier.

    5) New skills.

    a) big game hunter is my favorite, free food + pets + xp + damage. Just a great set.
    b) wandcraft. it may as well be a new skill now, fantastic!
    c) veganism. great to pair with archery, it's varried and fun. Agains a little of everything.
    d) emomancy. fantastic skill line. It's like a balanced form of psionics =p. psionics is still better.
    e) demonology. BLEH. self explanitory. Interesting line.
    f) piracy. WUT? BLEH.
    Anyway, I've beaten the game several times. Right now I'm playing what I think a noob would build Mace/shield/armorer/dodge/berserker/big game hunter/assasination. So I'm playing something without any cheesey ways to bypass combat or resource mechanics and I'm having fun. So there's that =p.
  5. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Derp, you must have forgotten me. I've played since this game was first released.
    The crafting menu has changed horribly. You have to scroll to use any item recipie. Instead of putting them in a crafting box manually. That changed only recently. You know, the crafting box, which you could store items in.
    I also accidentally double clicked on a recipe and used two steel to make a sword even though my current user was maces. That was very bad. And very bad on this game's new design.

    Also, more skills is bad if it prevents you from using the skills normally. Seriously, you don't gain enough experience to make the current skill trees useful.

    I have played vampirism builds almost since the beginning as well, nothing but diggle enemies and battys give vampiric life leech. and no, Vampirism was not OP. If you thought it was, you did something wrong.
    There are no enemies on level 2 that you can leach from besides a scant few.

    The Ectoplasm monsters have too high a health, too high damage for them to be able to spawn and be killed easily on floor 2. Sorry, it's true about monsters like slimes being weak against piercing/slashing.
    Don't insult my intelligence.
    Elvish Easy is what I always play at. Without Permadeath, and no way is this game easy. Sorry.
    They've long stopped balancing how the game works on easier difficulties.
    Mostly because of people like you. :(

    Vampirism no longer can be used at all except on 1 out of every 13 enemies or so I fight on the second floor. That is broken. Not a good fix.
    Besides, you apparently think you can survive floor 2 without life regeneration.
    It needs to be changed back, because no one can play a vampire.

    Thank you, Jhffmn. It's nice to know some people are nice here.
    I just wish the creators of this game paid attention to the fans more. Seriously, who would ever want this new crafting design? Not to mention several other issues.
    Yes, we now have a female character, but at the cost of a harder game even on Elvish easy, a crafting menu that takes longer to go through to make one item then it ever did before, vampirism that does not work, melee being weakened even further, etc...

    I'm sorry, but I think it's time I contacted a process server...:(
  6. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I kind like that DL 1 and 2 are a touch harder. Before as long as you dinged level 2 with any build, you'd cruise down to DL3 and then likely slog down to end game. The only 'challenges' were avoid getting impatient and dieing to an acid trap, not treating named mobs with respect, or running out of resources to a zoo. Now dl 1 and 2 are more dynamic and with the new no time to grind setting, the game is a bit more interesting early.

    But you know, the crafting inventory managment made the game boring and miserable. Making crafting pointless outside of ammo/pots/wands is probably a good thing.
  7. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    A touch harder? No, I'm playing on Elvish Easy, now, I want to be able to defeat the first 2 floors some day.
    At the moment...not likely. A far cry from getting down to floor 8 before. :(

    I liked smithing stuff though, but I liked the old style more. Why did they get rid of it? It's horrible now.
    I play without Permadeath, but still. I remember the days where I had a challenge, but the game was still fair.
    Those days have long since passed.

    I'll keep playing, maybe I'll win someday.

    Anyhow, back to the game. It's fun, and I do love the game, but I keep noticing that every update, every addition makes the game harder, on Elvish Easy.
    That is not exactly how good game balance works. Easy is Easy, Normal is Normal, Hard is Hard. Not Easy is Hard. :)
  8. IanExMachina

    IanExMachina Member

    The skills are more balanced now, it isn't terrible to have to put an extra level or so into burglary to get free infinite lockpicks really, especially considering how strong that skill was to have at the start.

    Also 'using the skills normally' is what you will be doing now as they are rebalanced, the old layouts aren't 'normal' any more.

    Another consequence of the skill tree rebalancing is the fact you can't just dump all your skill points into one Skill like archaeology, you have to think and actually sink a few into Skills that have a direct effect on keeping you alive (Weapon skills etc).

    You can still knock quite a few of the bars, have you tried the DLC Demonology skill? The base spell/ability you get is a knockback that is pretty useful in circumstances. Also having it randomly blocked off makes for a challenge to reach the item, maybe you'll turn into a Batty? Maybe you'll trust in Mathemagic teleport skill etc etc

    Vampirism still could do with slightly better scaling I agree, however on EE surviving without draining blobbies isn't impossible, just make sure if they drop an acid pool to move out the way. (Also use the Sparkly skill if surrounded as it now drains health too.)

    Personally I like the Magic Potato, a Floor 1 introduction to spell casters, not too strong and hurts Vegans. However I do agree I'd like to see spell damage on the Combat Log.

    The Ectoplasms aren't hard if you put points into your combat skills. I play on EE sometimes (as I want the Achievement) so it I'm not just generalising.

    Also I'm glad the Devs are acting in the way they are so far, the update/DLC has a host of new fun features ranging from rooms to monsters to skills etc.
  9. GoingJuffoWup

    GoingJuffoWup Member

    I personally think theres nothing wrong with the DLC to be frankly honest. The crafting system will actually become better when they input mouse wheel control.

    People don't realise that Rogue-Likes are meant to be as hard as hell. They say that the game was becoming easy, so they did more things to add more challenge, they're doing it right.

    As for everything else, I've noticed no difference either because there ain't or I don't play that sort of class.
    BDSb likes this.
  10. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Thank you, Ian.
    I still enjoy the game, but the new crafting setup is really annoying, and that's really my only big complaint.
    I'm playing a mace class character now, and the ectoplasms can actually be hurt now.
    I seriously doubt any weapon skill increase would allow you to damage them. :)
    Seriously, I did 3 damage with 2 swords while averaging around 12 to everything else. That's not normal.
    Nothing on floor 2 through 5 should have that much of a damage reduction to anything.

    People also need to stop thinking Roguelikes are supposed to be hard as hell. :)
    No, really, I've been playing them for over a decade. I know what they're supposed to be like. nonsensical damage reduction on monsters is not valid ever in any Rogue like.
    That's what broke Unangband for me, when the creator though adding D&D style weapon resistances made sense.

    I'm still sorry, but unless I'm missing something, it is physically impossible to do any damage beyond bare minimum to those ectoplasm monsters ever without a massive crushing damage bonus.

    Elvish easy needs them removed from the game generation, if they're not going to make the game easier any other way.
    I just don't get it. I know how this game has been since the beginning, and how it should be, but it seems very few people seem to realize how it should be.

    Anyone who says this game was becoming Easy needs to stop playing it. Not have the developers make it harder, at least, for Elvish Easy. This game should be balanced on all difficulties, if you don't agree with that, you are not someone who should be taken seriously. Simple as that. :)

    I mean, guys, I'm tired of having my complaints fall on deaf ears. I know I can't be the only one who plays on Elvish Easy.
    I still think the Ectoplasms and the ones that show up on floor 3 need to be adjusted so you can kill them without using only maces.
    I do upwards of 17 damage with maces, with swords, I do 3. That is not balanced.
    And frankly, I'm shocked that people still think this game should be made harder and harder. Please, stop it. Please. It's not fair that the creators of this game haven't balanced this game because people keep complaining that it should be made harder.

    Please, go back to Touhou, Mother, and every other hard game in history, and leave this game alone.
    Also, it's not even a Rogue-Like. A Rogue-Like has ascii based graphics display, or tiles at most, look at Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup videos on Youtube to know what I mean by tiles.

    A game with graphics cannot be a Rogue-Like by the definition, a game that is like Rogue, a game that came out back before the game crash of 1983. :)
  11. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    That's because you're focusing on one damage type rather than getting a variety. High resistance against one type is meaningless when you throw eight or nine types in smaller amounts that add up to a large whole.
  12. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that it's almost impossible to get massive damage types on a sword unless Krong is more generous with swords now. :)
    I just don't know why they were given well in excess of 10 damage reduction to every type of damage that weapons can deal normally.
    Blasting damage is one they don't resist, I believe.
    Besides, doesn't change the fact that not everyone is going to use the same sword for most of the game, therefor has a reason to use Krong on it only.
    I just like the game to be balanced, at least on Elvish Easy. I don't want this game to go the way of Touhou, the famous bullet hell shooter. :)
  13. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    People get a variety of damage types by dungeon level 2?

    I haven't played a sword user in the expansion yet but what he's saying seems right. According to the 'Ectoplasmic Excession' entry on Dredmorpedia™ they have :resist_aethereal:3 :resist_aphyxiative:10 :resist_existential:-5 :resist_piercing:11 :resist_slashing:3. That's pretty harsh for sword users, especially considering the 'ectoplasm' monsters seem designed to hit hard but be quick to kill.
  14. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Wow! Thank you, J-Factor, I didn't know they were that overpowered for level 2 even.
    Yeah, that's way harsh. That's like having Arch Diggles show up on floor 3. :) OKay, vastly weakened Arch diggles who can only do 25 damage max.

    Also, I did run into an Arch-Diggle in a teleporter zone. I died, but I got better. :)
    Also, kind of surprised it didn't do 56 damage a hit...
  15. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    ...Yes? Power of Magic Steel is a bunch of electrical damage. If you don't like Viking Magic, so is a Cybercone or a Cybertronic Amulet, or you can take Astrology for Radiant Aura's free radiant damage. Fire Bolts are easy to find, as are Bone Bolts and variety of Poison and Acid Bolts. Rusty Swords are pretty terrible otherwise, but both they and Interdimensional Axes deal the early hard-to-resist toxic damage. Many staves deal transmutative damage, as early as the Bent Staff. Bolas deal asphyxiative. Rings are an easy Krong for damage types that are unreliant on your weapon, and can also be found in stores. Little Black Book is necrotic, Burning Tome gives fire. Werediggle's Diggle Plague adds toxic, as well as the ability to enplague your enemies. Demonology has Fervor of the Flagellant and Abyssal Fire. Extra damage types are easy to come by, if you know where to look.
    BDSb and blob like this.
  16. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    While that may be, it's still not a fair or balanced monster for that early.
    It's a bit like putting Arch Diggles on level 4.
    Arch Diggles that don't do as much damage, anyway.

    Also, you seem to make the mistake that everyone wants to pick magic skills.
    If I have to play a mage to have an easy time with a sword user, the game is doing it wrong. :)
    At least I've gone through level 4 so far, and 2 mystery portal zones, grabbed some nice loot, and on my way to get the most overpowered armor ever for only 53,000 gold.
  17. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    ...fully 75% of the things I listed are not magical. And it isn't like putting Arch Diggles on level 4. It's like putting a difficult enemy on level 4 that requires you to get additional damage types from somewhere.
  18. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    I do, in fact, agree with you on Elvishly Easy: as a result of some of the... er, abuses... being closed off, the game is now pretty darned hard on that mode. There will probably be a rebalancing some time in the new year; that said, right now the

    With regards to the crafting system, however: the new crafting system was formulated after we got a countless litany of complaints about the speed that the old crafting system took to get anything done in. We wanted to give you all the recipes, let you select one, and then instantly click. So it's... still a work in progress, but I do think it's better. We will be adding the grid based recipe selector back into the crafting system in the New Year, as well as some filter modes. (Right now, my main focus is just on getting the game stable again - argh!)

    The nerfing of the meta-gameplay of the hidden recipes... was necessary, alas. A lot of the power gamers would *immediately* start grabbing materials working towards a dual Mace of Pleiades build, which... well, sort of defeats the point, really. So we killed it, and I think we're better off for it.

    Lastly: we do pay a lot of attention to what people say. Most of the changes we've made have been as a result of the user feedback. So if there are messages that we're not getting, then... I dunno, yell louder or something. :)
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  19. jhffmn

    jhffmn Member

    I agree that the game is better off, but now smithing is sort of pointless. I'm on my first play through of the expansion and already have a 17 damage weapon or so by DL 3. So if someone takes smithing they should get a pay off. But the problem was that pay off was consistent and it also led to grindy inventory management that made the game less fun. Tinkering and alch are going to be fine however.

    Um what else, I feel like the weaponskill lines are sort of sub par again. It sort of seems like the game pushes you towards 2x weapon duel wielding or 2x shield unarmed but sword and board play is lack luster.

    Only other thing I'd like to add is that fungal arts should work like big game hunter. But overall the expansion is solid.
  20. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Thank you, Nicholas for taking time from making the game work better, :) and replying here. Thank you.
    On a whole, I like the game. However, the monster placement is kind of off.
    I mean, a monster that can't be killed by sword users without relying on massive damage from other sources isn't really fair. And since said monster does 5 damage on Elvish Easy to you, and has enough health that fighting them without maces, is a bad idea, I'm probably going to go into the monster.xml file and change it to a more reasonable resistance to being stabbed. :)

    That said, I'm just surprised that you made them resistant to being stabbed. Every game with slimes and damage resistances in it, usually makes the slimes weak to slashing/piercing. After all, how do you crush a pile of goo? It's just going to splash everywhere.
    Swords have always been effective against slimes... Even in D&D.

    Anyhow, the game is fun, if a bit off putting. I mean, I really like swords, dangit, but I can't use a sword build unless I hope and pray Krong gives me a ton of good effects on a ring. That's not good game design.

    And sorry, Fax, but they shouldn't have been added in the first place with that high of a resistance to attacks.
    Nothing on the first 4 floors should have more than 5 or 6 reduction in damage from any source. Except for fire vs Fire blobbies, shock vs electric blobbies, etc, etc.

    Maybe if more people would stop asking for the game to be made harder, the people who made this game would work on balancing it more. :)

    Look, I like this game. But I've been playing Roguelikes for over a decade. I think I know how they work. :) Just because I didn't invent Angband, or Zangband, doesn't mean I don't know how difficulty progression in Roguelikes work.
    I finally beat DoomRL recently. :)

    A game like this should ideally have the first 3 levels be "easy", the next three levels making it harder and harder, until you get to the final 4 floors, where everything becomes strong enough to stab your face. :)
    Also, I now have around 13 AA from Serpentine plate pants. :) And some other armor gear.
    That Piercing resistance alone makes Arch Diggles only do 25 or so damage to me.
    ALso, block is getting high enough that most enemies don't hit for full damage.

    OH, dear, Magicka Golems corrupt armor now. Well played. now add the items that remove corruption effects from items. Or I will send an army of Diggle Commandos to drill your offices full of holes. :)

    Currently, the Crafting system takes much longer than it did before, becuase you have to manually scroll through the list, find the one you want, and then click Craft, or double click the recipe.
    That's much longer than it ever took before when you could use the crafting area to store things.

    Also, the Evil pact you make adds 13 life to you, instead of taking away your life force.

    Oh, and shrine quests are bugged sometimes. The items/monsters don't seem to want to appear, or be tracked on the map.
    Also, is it really too much to ask for the Witchys to not resurrect Kleptoblobbies and Magicka golems several times in a row? It's really hard to aim for a Witchy with anything, when you can't take more than a few steps before it either resurrects them, or blinds you, and then resurrects them.
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