Mod Combinations That Are Overpowered

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    This is just a simple thread for people to list mod combos they've discovered that are too strong when used in conjunction.

    For example:

    Ninjitsu + Practical Geology is overpowered because Stone Fist's +5 Melee Power makes Ninjitsu's unlimited throwing ammo into lethal ranged killing machines.

    Wild Magic + Runecaster is overpowered because Runecaster involves a lot of casting while not in danger, and Wild Magic turns that safe spellcasting into a source of booze, food, and other goodies.

    Wild Magic + Mana Mastery Mana Mastery gives 2 MP back when casting a spell, and Wild Magic has a spell that does nothing (but can trigger triggeroncast abilities) that costs 1 MP. Infinite mana with a chance for stuff is bad.
    Wi§p, Kazeto and RaustBlackDragon like this.
  2. Null

    Null Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Pretty sure Ninjitsu and Geology would become significantly weaker as you get towards late game to the point you're better off with the crit (if (1 + :crit:/100)*:melee_power: > 5))
  3. Yeah, probably. It might still apply though, depending on how easy it makes the early game-oh wait...

    The other two examples, however, DEFINTELY sound like they belong on this list.
    Essence likes this.
  4. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Actually, specifically because Ninjitsu's skill conjures late-game-appropriate ammo occasionally, the problem lasts a lot longer than you'd think. Unless you're playing Axes+Dual Wield or focusing on Crit-bonus gear, that +5 melee power goes a long, long way.

    [edit: What I mean is, when you're throwing gear intended for level 9 with a +5 damage bonus, and you're doing it on level 7, you can still 2-3 shot most mobs. That's bad.]
  5. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    Disagree with the concept of 'accepted OP combinations'. If a skill combination breaks the game it's either a bug (e.g. Killing Blow + Ranged) or one of the skills is overpowered.

    Ninjitsu + Practical Geology
    Plenty of buffs give close to 5 damage:
    • Mark of Chthon = :dmg_necromatic:2 :melee_power:2
    • Magic Steel = :dam_voltaic:2 :melee_power:1
    • Hand of Belimawr = :dmg_conflagratory:4 :melee_power:2
    • Fell Power (Mushroom) = :dmg_necromatic:4 :dmg_putrefying:2 :melee_power:1 (5 hits, not consumed by throwing)
    Losing all hope of :crit: for a measly 5damage is hardly OP. If anything is overpowered it's a zero cooldown spell that spawns unlimited high quality thrown weapons. (Probably not as OP as magic though).

    Wild Magic + Runecaster
    If casting spells outside of combat gives you so many benefits then what about spamming other low cost spells? Froda's Jump Discontinuity costs :mana:2 when you start the game and Diggle Plague counts as a spell for 'triggeroncast' purposes. Either the devs need to implement a 'targetHitEffectBuff' for magic or it needs to be balanced so it's not as beneficial (e.g. Leylines Conflux recovers :mana:20 but only occurs on every 20th cast).

    Wild Magic + Mana Mastery
    Not really broken considering Leylines gives you :mana:1 per turn as the 2nd level ability and you don't even have to waste your time casting every turn. Also see the above point about other low cost spells.
  6. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    1) Stone Fist is a 1st level effect with no upkeep. It's not comparable to Chthon or Belimwar. Magic Steel is 2 points less dangerous and has upkeep.

    2) The problem isn't jerking off with random spells to get Wild Magic effects -- Wild Magic even comes with a super-cheap do-nothing spell that lets you do that for 1 mana. The problem is that Runecaster gives you pretty damn strong magical effects to go with your random empty-room casting.

    3) Leylines 2 is OP. It's the one single thing I nerfed in my Core Skills Rebalance. Not a good balance point. :)
  7. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    1) The point I was trying to make is there are tons of ways to get a +:melee_power:5 (thrown) damage boost.

    First, as Null said, you're losing :crit:/100 * :melee_power: damage with Stone Fist. At level 6 (right when you're finishing Floor 1) this is about :melee_power:1. With this in mind would you say Ninjitsu is OP with:
    • Unarmed? (+5 damage at level 3)
    • Werediggle? (+6 damage at level 1)
    • Viking Wizardry? (+4 damage at level 1)
    • Fungal Arts? (+8 damage at level 1)
    Why specifically point out Geology when all these core skills have the same issue?

    (In my opinion Ninjitsu is OP because of Secret Sword alone. Unlimited, high quality thrown weapons at level 1 with no downside? Who wouldn't pick it as their last filler skill?)

    2) Wait, so the only problem with Runecaster is that you actually have a reason to be casting outside of combat? Aren't the free booze/food/goodies reason enough to be casting outside of combat? Plus the runecaster spells cost 5x/10x/20x more than the do-nothing spell.

    3) Okay. Well Mana Mastery is also broken with Psionics' Shove. By level 3 it costs :mana:1.
  8. Sniktch

    Sniktch Member

    A tripartite one, but still valid:

    Bushido + QiGong + Equestrian Expatriate. Rainboom into the center of a zoo, pop Final Stand, then Spirit Bomb. Mulch the survivors and come out pristine with Body Like Mountain's self-heal proc, while having no worries about corruption thanks to the +80!! :magic_resist: that QiGong and Bushido combine to give you while in Final Stand. Add Dragon Knight for another kaboomport and even more melee-combat healing, or Blood Knight for another PBAoE and melee leech.
  9. Inquisitor, Bushido, Dragon Knight, Sword, Duel, Dodge and Assassin (though never took all of Assassin, didn't need it).
    Able to level upto 33, beat Dredmore at lvl 28 without difficulty.

    Maxed in this order: Dragon, Inquisitor, Sword, Bushido, Duel, Dodge.
  10. Null

    Null Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Wild Magic + Mana Mastery is op because:
    If you have both of them maxed then every time you cast a spell, including cantrip you get:
    gain :mana:2
    gain :life:(1 + 0.07:magic_power:)
    deal :dmg_aethereal:(4 + 0.15:magic_power:) damage in an aoe
    have a 8.5% chance of gaining a buff
    have a 9.5% chance of spawning items nearby
    have a 10.5% chance of 2:1 gaining or losing :mana:25
    have a 11.5% chance of causing an aoe effect to nearby monsters

    This basically makes for godly amounts of effects on every spellcast, with cantrip especially allowing you to gain 1 mana and heal while spawning items, buffing yourself and damaging nearby enemies multiple times.
  11. Kazuhiro

    Kazuhiro Member

    Seems like too general of a situation to truly be called OP. We're talking about situations that were never meant to be, like Applebucking hundreds of apples out of the potatoes and mushrooms on Dlvl 6, thus sidestepping one of the problems of being a Vegan, which is not being able to eat cheese. Obviously this isn't actually that OP, but it does matter and it is a situation that was not meant to be,.

    The first part of what you wrote (Rainbooming into a zoo) is also covered by Swift Striker, Math, and probably all kinds of other skills. OP bullshit that you can pull right after Rainbooming into a zoo is also easy. Blood Magic+Promethean Kersplosion+Circle of Protection comes to mind.

    Why are you using Equestrian Expatriate anyway? I understand that anypony is good pony, but the capstone sucks, Complete Harmony sucks, Stare Master is overpowered when it's relevant and not even noticeable when it's not, Giggle at the Ghosties won't even trigger past floor 3 due to nothing being undead except wraiths, Tactical Rainbooms will always do way less damage than you want them to because spreading out their damage over 7 colors only makes enemies more able to resist it... I could go on. The mod really and truly needs work.
  12. Just curious, has anybody found a particularly overpowered combination with SwiftStriker? I use a mac, so using SwiftStriker in conjunction with other mods is a bit of a nightmare for me :)
  13. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    Not sure why two cast-proc skills would be overpowered when combined but perfectly balanced alone.

    If they're overpowered because... Free Mana!
    You can already get free mana with Psionics' Shove. By level 3 it costs :mana:1 - the same as the 'do nothing' spell in Wild Magic except you also get a free AOE. Additonally, some spells have no minimum cost (e.g. Zenzizenzizenzic).​

    If they're overpowered because... Free Health!
    Same as above except you only need spells with a cost of :mana:2 (e.g. Deathly Hex, Froda's Jump Discontinuity).​

    If they're overpowered because... Free :dmg_aethereal: AOE!
    If enemies are nearby, see above for the various cheap spells that would be better suited for this tactic than 'cantrip'.​

    If they're overpowered because... any of the Wild Magic random stuff
    Then that's a problem with Wild Magic.​

    I just don't see why it's acceptable for 2 skills giving cast-procs to be OP but the various official melee-proc skills being balanced fine.

    Now if you meant 'powerful' or 'combos well' that'd be fine.
    Wi§p and Essence like this.
  14. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Yeah, J-F won me over. I'm flipping. :)
  15. Wi§p

    Wi§p Member

    That doesn't mean that these things shouldn't be pointed out though.. I'm sure that this type of information would be very useful to modders.
    Essence likes this.
  16. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    I was just thinking that your zero-cool-down first level shoulder bash has some abusable potential with anything that has triggeroncast effects. I too am on a Mac, so I haven't tested these.

    Ley Walker's conflux would always be up... not that that would really be all that broken given what conflux does. And actually, it's like 5% to trigger, so that might not be so astounding.

    Also wild magic would be triggerable every turn without even requiring you to stand still. Need to move 15 spaces across the large empty room? I'll get there in the usual 15 turns, but also have 15 chances to trigger wild magic's goodies without a single mana spent.
  17. Ah yes, I've brought this up. Unfortunately, there's no way to make something a zero-cooldown skill without it being classified as magic.