Moar Brainstorming: Heirloom Blade and Shinobi

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, May 7, 2012.

  1. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I don't really see any problems there. Make the levelling up give you a recipe to change your weapon into a mid-form (non-equippable), and then make one (or more) unhidden recipes that turn the mid-form item to whatever it was supposed to change into.
    Not ideal (yes Essence, I know most of my "solutions" are akin to texts found in Lovecraftian lore if you compare the damage to sanity), but it does work.

    And if that is not enough, you can just go and pester Nicholas for more.
  2. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    The issue has to do with the impact of dozens of new recipes that can only be used with one specific new skill, and the impact that has if the mod is loaded but the skill isn't chosen. If hidden, the recipes could clog up the bookshelves and make other crafting skills less likely to get the recipes they need. If unhidden, then there's this several-page chunk of recipes that you have to scroll past. Not as terrible now as it would have been back before the "have ingredients" button, but still annoying. Choosing to only have heirloom swords quarters the number of recipes, thereby reducing the undesired ripple effects.

    If this were a single skill in it's own mod that would be a non-issue. You'd disable it when not playing this skill. But since it's going into a larger skill pack that sees considerable use without heirloom blade, it needs to not interfere with other crafting.
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  3. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    We could go another somewhat extreme way around this hurdle. We could have a skill for each weapon type that are separate mods with identical Mod IDs. That way you can only use the one you prefer, but other than that, they would be identical.

    But as r_b_bregstrom said, if they are going into a larger pack then it really needs a deciding choice made as to the type of weapon they are supposed to be. For myself, I am fine with any type, but swords seems to fit the theme best.

    As you should already know, wherever you lead we will follow. Make a choice and do not worry about it. If someone really wants it to be another type then they can bother to edit it themselves. (If you care to support it, you can leave an example in a text file like the Essential Skills Rebalance comes with.) I really doubt anyone will care enough to bother to change things though.
  4. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    zaratustra asked me in chat yesterday if he could steal the heirloom blade concept since I've obviously dropped it.

    I said sure, but he wasn't around to see it. So this is my official 'sure'. Take it away, zara. :)
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  5. Wyrmcraft

    Wyrmcraft Member

    I'm not sure if this thread is dead Essence, but I had a few mod suggestions. Obviously as I'm relatively new to this whole business I'm not so much asking you to make them (I know you are fully busy on Core Rebalance II and then finishing off the Essential Skills mod) as I am pondering if they could be made at all. In fact, it surprised me that I hadn't already seen them made, then again perhaps there is a reason.

    Of course, I don't know a blasted thing about coding, writing mods, or how Dungeons of Dredmor works on the insides. Though, the more I ponder these skills the more I think that (if it's even possible) I might try and make these myself if no brilliant modder looks at these and goes "Aha!" and takes it their own direction. Though, if I tried to make these myself it would mean these skills would never get done and take me forever as I tried to learn modding, got frustrated, and etc

    Well, enough preamble; Why Don't We Have?

    Name: Books
    Class: Warrior/Rogue
    Description: Your years as an assistant librarian have finally paid off, not only can you organize, alphabetize, but you can also now use your book handling knowledge to smack people around with them!
    Concept Behind It: Why do we not have a weapons skill for books? Let's make one with stances and everything. Books are so much fun to use, it's a shame there is not a tree to strengthen them. They are practically weapons in their own right, why not make them actual weapons that can be specialized in? There could be a neat little librarian theme too, would be fun.
    Potential Problems: Are books even considered weapons? Can you make a skill that checks to see if you have one equipped? How could we balance this since books do not need Duel Wield to be used in each hand? Plus potential overlap from Unarmed could be an issue.

    Name: Orbs
    Class: Wizard
    Description: You learned the ancient and arcane art of drawing even more power from an Orb, and how to hit people over the head with them.
    Concept Behind It: If it is even possible to make a weapon skill for Books, why not one for Orbs? Give a Wizard a reason to equip an orb, and give Wizards the possibility of choosing a Gish type playstyle without wasting points into normal weapon skills. Plus it would be fun to run around bashing people with your equivalent of a crystal ball while being fragile enough that a sneeze can kill you.
    Potential Problems: I know orbs are not considered weapons, but we have the same problems as the above. Can we check to see if one is equipped, how do we balance for Duel Wield, can it even be coded, what about Unarmed Overlap? Etc.

    Name: Shields
    Class: Warrior
    Description: Shields have long been mistaken as forms of defense, tell that to the diggle you just knocked toothless
    Concept Behind It: Why do we have a shield tree, that provides little in terms of offense? One that doesn't even need a shield equipped to make the most use of it? This is more of a redesign than a new skill, but why not make the Shield Bearer skilltree into a more offensive option, like a weapons skill tree? Something with stances, neat abilities, extra bludgeoning damage, and other fun benefits
    Potential Problems: I'm rocking the boat on your redesign thread, and we face the same problems as above such as being able to freely duel wield them without a penalty, can it even be done, and how to make it balanced for unarmed combat.

    Welp, let me know if these ideas are even possible; let alone practical or something that could be fun to use (no sense making them otherwise) because if they are I might start dreaming up skillsets and then trying to jam those skillsets into code form, or someone else is welcome to take this up and try their hand. I give free reign to anyone who wants to build these, if anyone wants to build these.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  6. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Unless I missed something, the game sees orbs, shields, and books all as the same thing. To the game engine they are not weapons. (But can still add to offense via stats and skills.)

    If this is ever changed, Essence will have to work overtime whipping up some new stuff for them.
    mining and Wyrmcraft like this.
  7. Wyrmcraft

    Wyrmcraft Member

    Ah, that would make sense, after all they all function the same way.

    A pity though, I would love if they were different; I could make a Book skill set so easily.

    What about a single tree in the meantime called Makeshift Weaponry ...maybe, but it just doesn't feel the same.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  8. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Well, it is possible to make a skill working for just one of these. However, doing so requires scarily high amounts of code, too much for anyone who isn't crazy to even bother; too much to have even a chance of it being compatible with Essence's rebalance, too (unless the whole thing started as an off-shot of it).

    But if we are talking about the absolute is/is not possible thing, then it is possible.
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  9. Wyrmcraft

    Wyrmcraft Member

    That makes me sad. Book Fu would be such fun.

    Infact my current playthrough is basically book-fu, which is what sparked my curiosity.
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  10. Ashnal

    Ashnal Member

    As for the multiple weapon types limited by one recipe per level up, you could just have multiple copies of the skill, each which is a different weapon type. Kinda like how Fax has all of his dragon aspirants for different elements. Would it be so bad to clutter the skill select screen in exchange for giving trees suitable for several character types?
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  11. Nacho

    Nacho Member

    You could still do so. The "Unarmed" skill tree is basically the weapon specialization for books, shields, and orbs right now, but it's not really specced for any of the three. You can't make a tree that only works if you're wielding 2 shields, or one that will still work if you've got 1 shield and 1 weapon, but you can make a tree that only works if you've got no weapon, and then tailor the abilities to require and add the stats shields give that orbs and books don't :)block: and :armor_asorb:), and some abilities that only activate when you block. Likewise, an unarmed tree that requires and adds :magic_power: and :mana: for orbs, with abilities that activate when you cast a spell. You'd probably need to give Cracked Orb a more usable recipe though, so people can reasonably keep using 2 orbs through the whole dungeon.

    Books would be a little harder. Probably something with lots of free attacks like Liechtenauer's Switcheroo and Guerrilla Attack, to activate the books' special abilities (they all have a spell they might cast on attack). Add in some book recipes, since they're too hard to reliably find and, in the base game, impossible to craft, to take a skill tree that requires them to work. Then toss in some more spells with an X% chance of activating on attack, just because you can't fill an entire tree with variations of attacking and paralyzing the monster next to you. And something like the current Unarmed tree's "Nice Combo" ability, which would let you keep hitting the same enemy over and over again.
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  12. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    How do you make a tree that only works if you have no weapon?
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  13. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Make a skill which requires you to have any weapon and puts a dummy buff on you, and then have some fun with "requirebuffonnottrigger".
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  14. Nacho

    Nacho Member

    The same way the Unarmed Combat tree currently does it- by not giving any of its stats if you have one. I suppose technically it works with a weapon, but not very well. Especially since all 3 are made with Shields/Orbs/Books in mind. Your "deal :block: *.2) damage whenever you block" ability doesn't work as well without a shield or two, and works even worse without the extra :block: Shield Combat gives when you've got no weapons. Unless I'm wrong about Unarmed. I don't use it much. It does remove its stats when you've got a weapon equipped, just like the weapon specialties do when you don't have the right weapon equipped, right?

    Or what Kaz said.
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  15. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Yes, but that's hardcoded -- there's no way to make it happen in XML.
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  16. Nacho

    Nacho Member

    Then I suppose Kaz's way is the only way.
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