If you think about it... the degree of balance in this game is amazing

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by Midnight Tea, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. mining

    mining Member

    Well, I for one never take archaeology for IBIAM, and never feel the need to - if I grab it, it's because I want to to a KRONGHAMMER or MASLECH II run.

    Other than that... Stack abuse is "lucky pick 500 times, then split the stack for infinite lutefisk rewards"
  2. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    You are being pushy once again, lujo86. There are people who do not want the changes you propose being made to IBttM, and you will not convince these people that your changes will bring them pure bliss because they don't see it as such. And making people happy forcefully is like crusades, the results of which weren't really happiness-inducing for the attacked ones.

    And, getting the ball back to you, you speak of the necessity of having IBiaM, but really, why would it be necessary? You don't want artefacts, you can skol them into Lutefisk or just sell them to Brax. You want experience, you just explore the dungeon. It is you and people who can't stop themselves from getting addicted to a feature of a skill tree who have that problem, and nobody else; the same argument as you made about IBiaM can be made about many other skills from various skill trees - Lucky Pick from Burglary, Celestial Circle from Demonology, the feature of dual wielding from Dual Wielding, etc. - but people did not ask to make these public because it would be silly. You take a skill tree because you want something from it, and asking to make something you take a skill tree for to be made public "because you are losing a skill slot" is pretty much asking to get an eight skill slot, only worded differently. And players in the past managed to win with just seven skill slots, so getting one more is not necessary.

    Also, if you try to poke fun at me and/or use me as an example of a violent forum user, at least have the decency to know what the person whose alleged words you are using really wrote. And I am referring to the below paragraph, which I quoted to make sure you know what I am talking about:
    Because nobody is saying that making builds with Archaeology is bad. We are merely saying that trying to force the change that would make its skills available for everyone because you can't stop picking it and yet think that the skill slot you used for it is wasted, is a bad thing.
    BDSb and Midnight Tea like this.
  3. lujo86

    lujo86 Member

    Kazeto, you are a living, posting example of why I had to get drunk to open the issue up in the first place. Why does YOUR view of what the game is about give you reason enough to do what you did in your first post in this thread? Why am I, or anyone who sees it like I do, supposed to put up with your constant shutting down of every thread you find "heretical"? Can you even fathom how insanely (and I'm using the term very precisely) offensive your approach to this subject is? Or how condescending, vain and beligerent the whole "I'll be good to you and not kill you" little drama was?

    You're calling people addicts for using the only outlet in the game that makes sense for a certan global playstyle regardless of build. Do you know what addicts are, Kazeto? Is anyone who is not ready to trahcan any of the myriad factually useless tings this game offers as rewards and then trashcan 499 more hope he won't get another thing he can't possibly use - an addict to Archaeology? Do you know why you think this is my subjective way of looking at things? Becasuse I'm one of the few people who think this way, and likes the game enough to endure a barage of chauvinistic, narrow minded, fanatical crap like the one you threw at me. You derailed the discussion about skills and their role within the game system into a very ad homminem attack agaisnt my character, my habits, my expirience, my ability to logically deduce because I didn't want to waste time explain something which is obvious and also confirmed by one dev before and one after I posted.

    God knows how many issues had someone with a stake in it, sense, dedication and expirience simply give up after one of those. I'm actually getting inbox mail saying: "Don't necessarily agree with you, but way to stand up to Kazeto". Think about this long and hard, whoever you are. Because on this subject you are wrong, and I am right. Not because I want to be, or that I couldn't stand not being - and if this doesn't achieve anything regarding a possible expansion it doesn't improve my position in any way.

    As for the topic:

    Guys, if there were one-shot vending machines here and there throughout the dungeon which let anyone transmute an artifact for XP i'd never take archeology again. Even if it cost zorkmids to activate. Use the old crafting Ui, let it pop up, you put somethign in there, pay money, hit button, artifact and dispenser gone, you get some XP, feel good about a useless reward. It's that simple. Archeology still there for those who want to powergame it and be able to do it zorkmind free, and the two obviously can't stack because you transmute the component. The only reason the ability has a cooldown is so you couldnt abuse it in the middle of a fight, and you can hardly have all your fights in the same place.

    Just one of the million solutions.

    EDIT: Or like one of the guys who started a personal message with "I don't agree with you on archeology, but thank god someone finally stood up to Kazeto" sent me just as I was writing that: "One way I could like it going "public" is if there were some sort of shrines where you could sacrifice artifacts - i.e. not a GUI element like the Wizardland keys or the Fisk cube. Like a hoarder god that gleefully unsummons all the crappy randarts all the other gods make."

    But I was sort of tinking about what would be easier to mod/code without badgering the devs. Like his flavour well enough, but I'd make it one shot and still cost money. If he's an "art critic" or "art collector" then when you are an archeologist youre doing the right thing and sending them to a museum instead of lettingthem fall into his hands or whatever :D

    EDIT: And archeology remains the only skill set in the game which can interact meaninfully with Krong altars and keeps identity that it was actually ment to have. You don't see me complaining about just any issue, and this in a game were fighters are allready going around castign tenebrous rifts if the want. I spent more time and energy trying to explain why I'm on about THIS issue, more than what would take any of you guys to whip up what was just suggested and see how it feels and wether the devs could be persuaded to earn more money by bundling it up with whatever Essence comes up with regarding weapon skills reworks.

    And the trap data entry I'm going to volunteer for if enough people can agree on what the exact data would be. And a decentifying of BGH if anyon'd want to discuss it.
  4. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    lujo86, you're the one being really hostile here, even if Kazeto did throw the first stone. When you don't get a unanimous agreement whether your ideas have objective value, you basically turn up the heat on the people criticizing your position. This whole "The Dungeons of Dredmor people can't stand criticism of their game!" is a strawman and patently untrue. There wouldn't be a strong modding community if any of us thought the game was perfect. How ironic that by repeatedly grandstanding like a drunken hobo on a street corner, you actually prove my original point about the game having meaningful skill tree choices. Because it's like Kazeto said: everyone has their own ideas about which skill trees absolutely must go into every build they do.

    And guess what? Even if we were as convinced as you of their necessity, we'd get off our asses and actually add it to the game. That's the difference between you and Essence. For that matter, it's the difference between aforementioned drunken shouting hobo and the people who have actual power to change things in this world. Not just Dungeons of Dredmor, but the world that still exists even when you walk away from the monitor.

    Honestly, would it hurt to ask yourself what you could accomplish if you spent even a fraction of this emotional and mental energy on something productive? This is not meant to be a criticism of you or what you choose to do with your spare time, mind you (i.e. the "parent's basement" ad hominem fallacy). If you're totally happy being powerless but loud about it, then pay me no mind.
    What I'm saying, though, is that burning heat in a passionate ritual brushfire isn't as useful as burning the same heat in the boiler of a steam engine. I'm literally saying the same amount of energy you're putting into both complaining and selling your complaints could have gone towards making a rudimentary and playable IBiaM mod. This is worth more than any amount of drunken bluster you care to drown people in, since it's possible you'd be proven right in practice about it being an essential change. This would have a lasting and enduring effect on the Gaslamp Games community. This little forum episode, however, is going to be long forgotten by the time Clockwork Empires comes out. It might even be forgotten a week or two after whenever the mods may finally decide to lock this thread. This is exactly why scientists are more useful to the longterm future of humanity than politicians.

    As the proverb goes, "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
    BDSb and Kazeto like this.
  5. lujo86

    lujo86 Member

    Could some one point to me a way to do this, because I would've allready done it if didn't seem to me stuff is hardcoded:

    "make a custom vending machine / altar / bookcase / pallete swap statue / game object (has anyone ever edited how THEY work?)

    which opens up one of the old crafting interfaces (Or a lutefisk cube interface or whatever of that sort) (found them)

    and when you put a named artifact in it it calculates a zorkmid price (shouldnt be a problem)

    and when you press the button it does a IBIAM (also shouldnt be a problem)"

    If I didn't suspect some of this was hardcoded I would've done it the moment David first posted. I think I can stick the rooms in myself. Ty. (I looked through the tutorial, and didn't find a way to create a custom object of this sort, so I'm asking whether anyone's done anything like this before, or if it is indeed not possible)

    Come to think of it, moving this whing to the modding section, I got a better idea in case this is undoable without pulling on dev's sleeves.
    Kazeto likes this.
  6. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member


    We're balanced? When did that happen?
    BDSb, Essence, mining and 2 others like this.
  7. lujo86

    lujo86 Member

    Oh, a dev!

    Can I pull on your sleave please?

    Could you point me to the code I need to whip up a custom shrine please? I'll do the rest of the work, will make a nice concise mod :) if there is such code available, and it's not too much of a bother?

    Also, could you point me to where the code which is applied when inconcequentia quests place markers on the minimaps is, so I can finally get a way to put custom markers on the minimap for making notes?

    Kazeto likes this.
  8. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Relax, everyone.

    Both of these things are not moddable.
  9. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    Is it possible to use the little highlighted blue or red icon on the floor (that heals or summons) to call the it belongs in a museum? Or maybe a trap that cannot be disarmed? Then put it in its own special room?
  10. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    As the spell targets something in your inventory, and not you, I don't think so.
  11. Rakankrad

    Rakankrad Member

    I know that there is a trap that can't be disarmed in a Wizardland (no idea if it's a mod trap or not tho but even with 15 trap affinity I still had 0% disarm on it). It probably can be copied over, made into a special=1 room and added the IBIAM effect when stepped on, but I dunno if it'd work, since it usually wants you to have your cursor on top of the item you want to send.
  12. Wootah

    Wootah Member

    Since I don't code, this might be completely unrealiistic, but can you first create some dialogue box that tells them to next click on an item?
  13. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Yeah, pretty much what he said. The code for these things isn't particularly clean and certainly not very reusable, even if we wanted to have custom shrines.

    Lessons learned for Clockwork Empires, folks.
    Kazeto and Turbo164 like this.
  14. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    I think I owe lujo86 an apology, then :(
  15. mining

    mining Member

    You can add IBIAM to every skillset pretty easily, or put it on a wand that you give to every skillset... etc.
  16. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Actually, mining, wands for whatever reason have to target the floor, so you can't make a wand that does inventory trickery. I'm also fairly certain that room-based spells can't target your inventory either, because they go off when you step on a square, not when you step on a square and then right-click in your inventory. No, only skillbar spells allow you to target your inventory, so only skill mods can address the problem.

    That said, lujo, if what you want is IBTAM in a non-Archeology build, it would be trivial for me to teach you how to attach IBTAM to a different skill tree -- or every skill tree. You just seemed uninterested in solving your own problem and instead interested in forcing everyone else to accept your problem as legitimate and then accept your solution.

    That's...not going to happen.
    BDSb and Kazeto like this.
  17. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    [Here was a long wall of text that was supposed to be directed at lujo86. But I don't care anymore, if he wants to think I am bad, it is his opinion and he is entitled to it. From the very beginning I disagreed with his suggestion of making IBtaM publicly available always and all the time, but I had already voiced my opinion and there would be no point in trying to reply because anything I could write would likely be more acidic than I would want it to be.]

    And now getting to the point.

    I really like the idea of there being custom shrines that would make it possible to send artefacts to the museum when you were in it. It is a nice compromise between the skill being accessible to everyone and it being accessible only to those with this particular skill tree, and while I wouldn't really use these shrines if they were in the game, I cannot deny the fact that they would be a good change.
    I know it is not possible to make it work directly, but a work-around might be possible, and I am willing to share this idea with you if you are willing to get it from me (because you appear to think I want to wage war with you, and thus you might not want any help from me, which is why I asked; if you want it [the idea, not war], you'll get it). nay, I already did it, I like writing too much to stop trying.
    Midnight Tea and Essence like this.
  18. Midnight Tea

    Midnight Tea Member

    Actually couldn't you make a wand that targets the artifact if it's on the floor?
    Kazeto likes this.
  19. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    I haven't tried, but it actually makes a lot of sense.
  20. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Null said it's possible. I never knew you could target on-floor items with Item spells, so I had no idea. I'm awash with possibility at the thought. :)