If you could revamp a core skill, which skill(s) would you choose and what would you change?

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Ruigi, Apr 19, 2012.

  1. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    No offence but this made the rest of your post make no relevant point what so ever. The devs can only balance the game accordingly to what they can controle. I play vanilla or use 3 mods at most and even then I still have way too much to run on. Having more than vanilla is the same as having more than what the devs can controle.

    You can not expect the devs to be able to controle more than the basic game - expecing more is expecting them to be able to read the mind and preferances of every single player since everybody will be having specifc precerances.

    Edit: added underscored word - not to emphasise it but just to show what was the edit :)
  2. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    So *I* should stop using mods because *You* disapprove? Mods add new life to the game. And many people work hard making them. The base game is great, but the core features are still what modders rely upon.

    I tend to think I am not the minority in using a boatload of mods. And unless some change happens, the inventory problems will eventually become a problem even for an unmodded game.
  3. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    By no means. I love mods and swap them around all the time. My point was that the devs can be expected to balance or code according to them if modders can change it in a second, and probably does.

    They (edit: the devs) have no way of knowing if your mods pit you against 1 or 20 dragon whelps and even then they have no controle of their stat, what recipies you have access to or what items you have access to. Asking them to balance according to that is very unrealistic.

    Hence, the devs can only be expected to balance acoording to what they know for certain - or, in other words, vanillla.
  4. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Alright. The devs are good at math. Several of them have advanced mathematics degrees that make my head spin while thinking about.

    As it is, there are six potions that have zero beneficial use outside of crafting, a dozen ingots that again have no use but for crafting, another ~dozen gemstones without a use besides crafting, and I could keep going.

    There are a total of fifty-seven slots to put items in counting the quickbar. That leaves 57-30=27 for all the items counting potions, bolts, throwing, and swap equipment.

    My average late game character has probably a dozen potions on hand at any given time and I simply do not use fungus since I have no-where to put it. I am also not even considering food items. There are probably a dozen or two more of those.

    BTW, all of this is core game items. Nothing I have counted is added from mods. I dropped all that so as not to be deemed irrelevant. :)

    We need a packmule or a second backpack. Or the change I proposed above.

    *Edit* I am also not counting the crafting tools themselves. And I have no doubt there are other items I missed.
  5. mining

    mining Member

    Re: Lorellian: Its ludicrous to compare an ability which stacks with vampirism to an ability which replaces astrology - its as simple as that.

    It'd be like if I told you "Here, have a GPS!" - you still need to be able to read the map, so those skills aren't wasted. But if we then give you a chauffeur to drive you around, then that skill wasn't worth learning.

    Re: Crafting - yes, I love Omni's idea. One way to mitigate concerns would be to make it a 'crafting backpack' or whatever that you can add or remove any ingots/jewels/components (i.e. brass piping).
    OmniNegro likes this.
  6. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    You completely missed the point.

    If damage from a level 2 skill is (X = 8 + :magic_power: × 0.55) then they devs can controle which items and skills, and thus what kind of reliable :magic_power: you reliably have available at level 2 and balance accordingly. Since modders can define anything, they could, theoritically and for the sake of argument, give you 100% chance to find an item with +50 :magic_power: - how are the devs supposed to balance according to what they have influence on?

    I agree that we need more inventory based on the vanilla settings but your argument is intrinsicly flawed the second you draw mods into the discussion
  7. mining

    mining Member

    Shadowplay: That's a massive fallacy.

    The fact of the matter is, inventory space for new items is rarely an issue - you either have X new items or you don't. You replace items. The issue is, with or without mods, your inventory space is very constrained - I have played a Fungal + Alchemy build and its impossible. Your fungi fill up your bar + 1 inventory slot (Excluding puffballs and Mud Wen) and basic potions fill up another 2 slots for health/mana and a small handful of potions and you need some bolts or thrown and... Regardless of how I managed my inventory, I would need to leave artifacts worth a ton of gold behind or run on <200 HP of food in my inventory.
  8. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Shadowplay, if you can find one mod that does that ridiculous example, I will unwatch this thread and be silent about it. :)

    Mods are made with care. Game breaking is not a modders goal. Pushing boundaries sometimes is, but not without costs. Look through all the mods you want. Even if you find a crazy overpowered one, the thread about it would be filled with the sound of crickets.
  9. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    I dont see how that makes it a fallicy since the pont still stands. I agree that the numer of inventory slots doesnt stand but that is regardless of mods since I am actually playing vanilla and still getting massively limited by them. I do think that the crafting system does need a shineup but that, how ever, doesnt make my original point, valid since I do think that a fixing of the crafting system will eliminate most of the current problems
  10. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    How exactly will things improve in your original suggestion of ADDING more reagents to the problem? Also you are proposing a complete rewrite of the recipes, and then a rewrite of the crafting interface to boot. I am proposing taking something that goes in inventory and making it nothing more than a number that can be used exactly the same way as it currently does. Which solution is less work?
  11. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    double post - I hope
  12. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    The answer to that question would be: My latter solution - the one found in my latter posts since I dont care to copy/paste my points.

    Edit: Not to sound like a dick but they seem to have already been answered
  13. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I screenshot that before your edit. But suffice it to say that we are not going to change one-another's mind. If you want to PM me to continue and even insult me without anyone else getting involved, feel free.

    Your own Breaker of Games? I think it really would, too. The price is too high for a 4 byte Integer. :)
  14. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    I did edit to to avoid looking like a dick - but it would take me around 10 seconds to make a mod which gave you 100% chance to start with an item which gives 11000 :dmg_piercing: and +100000:magic_power:. Do you seriously think that the devs of the game should balance the game to take such mods into account? I am not against such mods and if they make the game more fun I will always supprt it - but expecting the devs to be able to read the minds of future modders and balance accordingly is quite unrealistic imo
  15. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    No Shadowplay. I think you are taking everything I said way out of context. I realize you did not want to look like a dick. That is also why I am not posting the screenshot. If anyone missed it, good for them. I too get upset and make a bit of a drastic post every now and then.

    The devs know about the common mods people use. They even participate in the threads discussing balancing the mods. So if I were being a dick, I would say your argument is invalid. But I will not. :)

    But for humor, make an item like you just described with 100000 :magic_power:. Now every acid bolt trap is an instagib for everything including Dredmor. :)
  16. Shadowplay

    Shadowplay Member

    So If I were to make a mod with an intrinsic +30 to all stats, it should not affect the game?

    And feel free to post the screenshot. I always post my initial thoughts and then edit later if nessecary. I am quite erratic at times so I would love to see my initial thoughts on the matter - they must be rather suprising since you bothered making a screenshot of them :)
  17. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I actually screenshot it because when I clicked "Reply" the words "double post - I hope" were all that was quoted. I thought it could be a forum problem of some sort. I then closed my browser and cleared the cache and reloaded to see that your post was indeed different than it was. Then I replied.

    And no, I will say it only one more time. I never once said that massively overpowered items or mods are alright. Please just drop this nonsense.
  18. mining

    mining Member

    "So If I were to make a mod with an intrinsic +30 to all stats, it should not affect the game?"

    That's ridiculous.

    But, here's the thing - it won't actually affect the game. At all. You can play it with your mod. It'll be piss easy, but hey - maybe you wanted god mode.

    What we're saying is that there should be more capacity in the inventory for two reasons:

    A) Because right now its dumb. You don't HAVE an inventory as it is, if you're crafting. You have your crap for crafting, and you have your food... and that's about it. God help you if you want a second weapon or anything.

    B) Because modders shouldn't be unable to add items to the game. GLG has (thankfully) made Dredmor very much moddable - and it'd be a real shame if despite the awesome customization that can be done, it was useless because a whole class of mods is unplayable because you can't do a think about inventory sizes.

    Anyway, you keep making horrible strawman arguments combined with a slippery slope style argument. You take something that's not our argument (GLG should balance around mod makers) and argue against that. Then, you also take it up to 11 and imagine that GLG should balance around mod makers who are intentionally aiming to unbalance the game. Sadly, its not a good fallacy to pick, in fact by definition none of them are. So perhaps you should actually either A) debate whats up for discussion (inventory) or B) stop debating unrelated points. In fact, I'd find both of them good outcomes ;).

    Also, perhaps Daynab should split this thread out from Core Skills revamp and the inventory discussion.
  19. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    If someone wants to make a thread about the inventory issue, feel free though there's already been a few. Trust me, Gaslamp is aware of this issue.

    Be nice to end the derail in this thread though.
  20. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    I always empty thrown weapon dispensers when I play as anything that's not a mage. You'd be very surprised how quickly that can eat through your money when ID's Skeet Shoot room spawns pretty much every level. Seriously, until DL 10-11 you'll have a hard time buying it all without backtracking. And I hate that. So I sell the more expensive crafting ingredients and buy thrown items. Just a play choice, but I'd like to not have it taken away from me.
    I was responding to this statement:
    Which is exactly what the Dark Forces room does and Blucaps did (and still do). And really, Blucaps pretty much replace vampirism, IMO. Blucaps aren't like a GPS for a driver. They're like giving a person a choice between occasionally using grenades and playing with matches next to a gas station pump. One of them is useful, the other, suicidal. Why take Vampirism and suffer all the drawbacks for a lower level of power when you could have Vampirism on demand and no drawbacks at all?
    OmniNegro likes this.