I am not excited about the future

Discussion in 'Clockwork Empires General' started by Mikel, Jul 6, 2016.

  1. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    Today's blog just feels like they are adding yet another layer of low level micro-management that will provide less time and resources for end game play...
  2. Tikigod

    Tikigod Member

    The general theme of the repair trunks is very much how things have been heading for a while, ever since the first indications of a tug of war between simulation driven decision making and the headache of balancing the uncertainties that may occur runtime, and the temptation to just player micro-manage the crap out of as much as possible so that more and more can be predicted and made into a couple of linear paths... and with the less headache involved direction for the game showing all the signs of taking over.

    Funnily enough for me at least it's pretty much at the point where I now consider Clockwork Empire on the further end of the 'Micro-management driven industrial simulator" spectrum, with something like Maia on the opposite end sitting at "No player involvement, passive simulation" end of the spectrum making it closer to the likes of Universe Sandbox in that the player just exists to set up entities and then watch how it pans out to a level that even if you have several identical environments it will never quite have the same outcomes leaving a lot down to random decision making luck with no player involvement in the process to influence that other than to add factors into the environment and hope the simulation responds accordingly.

    Whilst a game I've been playing on and off for some time now but was less interested in for a long time called 'Unclaimed World' that used to be further on the 'Micro-management' end of the spectrum than Clockwork Empire has since grown to end up being a nice little middle ground that crosses between the two and eased up on the micro-management in favour of coming to a nice little position that sees the player exist to set exact orders and populate the environment, but then leaving it to the simulation to decide how to achieve what the player has laid out... and very recently started fleshing out colonists to be more individualistic, cleaning up the annoying clunky bits that long since plagued the game and even started to introduce concepts such a colony policies that can only be established when democratic opinion of the population supports one option over another, trade import/exporting and immigration/emigration.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  3. Bluebird

    Bluebird Member

    It's a logical move for the game - I just hope we have priorities sorted so colonists actually use the trunks in a timely manner and not chat/wander/forage or generally twiddle their thumbs while their cooker melts.

    And the cost of repair trunks vs original item will be interesting to see - the carpenter's workbench is so cheap that I can't see a trunk being cheaper to make. Same for oven etc.
  4. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    Agreed. Gotta admit I was not too excited to see there was yet another doohicky we have to constantly make in order to ensure other doohickies get made/maintained. I thought bricabrac would be the end of that. I'm ready for some fun stuff... frankly this isnt.

    I understand if we'll have to make say... military supplies or something to feed ammunition to our troops, but having to crank out bricabrac and repair chests seems like dull busywork. Especially now that we have to do it on a per-module basis. Most of the game now consists of clicking through menus of resources and modules.

    Gonna try to stay positive though. Haven't tried it yet and maybe it's not a big deal.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
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  5. tojosan

    tojosan Member

    Apparently not implemented yet. I don't see a thread about 52B. Likely to be included there or in an update just after.
  6. Drumhead

    Drumhead Member

    Yeah the per module basis thing has definitely made this game more of a micromanagement simulator. I am not sure if the repair things will work, but without being able to queue up a bunch of minimums it does not sound fun. I am not really looking to make a workshop with 6 of each module so that I can say, Minimum 1 repair kit, minimum 1 brickabrack, and minimum 12 planks.
  7. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Bric-a-brac was intended to actually be a simplification of what was already there. Previous designs would have you building decor with specific decor objects that had to be made in a workshop, and that just got messy (and unbalance-able.) So far it seems to do the job pretty nicely.

    The purpose of the repair/upkeep system is different: regardless of anything else, there is an economy in the game and therefore there should be good reasons to keep your initial economic systems in use. These systems should build up and support more complex systems. It makes it harder to reach a stable endgame, requiring more work from the player to keep everything operational, and thus making it more rewarding when you have a system that runs well. The goal is to keep players from building a carpentry workshop, building all the modules they need for the rest of the colony, then breaking it down and never using it again. It's not like we just throw darts at a dart board and implement


    "giant, poisonous man-eating socks" Hmm. Well, bad example. The point is that, in general, there are a lot of areas in the economy where we just randomly gave you stuff. We're fixing those and closing them off, because you can't have a game where we just randomly give you stuff. That wouldn't be a game. One other example that hasn't been discussed is immigration, where we are also moving towards making middle and upper-class housing matter. Don't think of it as cruel taxation; think of it as an opportunity for forward-moving progress.

    If it's any consolation, David's doing [REDACTED].
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  8. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    (Also, unless there are compelling reasons to do so, multi-minimum module job queues are not going to happen: not only are they atrocious nightmares to code, and require significant UI design to indicate to a user why a certain thing was selected over others, but they actively encourage the sort of behavior we are trying to tamp down on where somebody builds one carpentry workshop, queues up one workbench with a minimum # of commodities for everything, and then has now eliminated a large chunk of gameplay for themselves.)
  9. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    I have no doubt that there are very good reasons for the decisions you are making. I am just not particularly excited about a journey into tedium. I get enough of that at work.
  10. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Obviously, there are balance tradeoffs to be made as well, which will help.
  11. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    Having to micromanaging the carpentry shop (in part due to the lack of production queueing) through the lifetime of the colony does not constitute quality gameplay, and if it represents a large chunk given the number of other buildings and systems in the game, then my fears will be fully realized.
  12. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    ... and you realize that the cost of creating another workbench is 2 logs to be able to queue up another minimum production amount? That hardly seems like micromanagement.
  13. Rentahamster

    Rentahamster Member

    I'm not too worried. Whatever stuff gets implemented and refined, I'm pretty confident the devs understand the progression/reward feedback loops, and supply chain mechanics that make things like this more fun than tedious.

    There's a careful balance to be had, since one gamer's tedium can just as well be another gamer's min/max OCD satisfaction.

    Is there a role to play for crushing difficulty (e.g. FTL, XCOM, Dark Souls, etc)? Can it be reconciled with gameplay for people who just want to see something be created organically and casually? These are things that we all have to ask eventually.
    Samut likes this.
  14. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    I expect gaslamp to prove me wrong. In the near term, I am not finding the game particularly compelling right now and this change has the potential to make it even less so for me.
  15. tojosan

    tojosan Member

    if all else fails @Nicholas will help us get it squared up and fun. Or perhaps the fish people will visit him. :)
  16. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    I'm all for making the game more challenging, in fact I crave that. I enjoy most of the supply chains and look forward to complex ones. I get that having an increasing amount of spinning plates going is a valid gameplay mechanic... BUT if some of those plates are tedious and repetitive, that's where you start to lose me a bit.

    But yeah, I know this is all leading up to something and I haven't seen it all come together yet. My mind is still open.
  17. Manamoo

    Manamoo Member

    I am really looking forward to the changes...I think of all the new patches as new adventures...what kind of trouble can I get my poor colonists (sorry colonists!!) in this game?! I think what @Nicholas says makes sense....I keep checking over and over to see if there's a 52B while enjoying my newest 52A game...lol! :)
  18. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    Also guilty of checking way too often for 52B. My logical side says it probably won't come till tomorrow, but I hate that side sometimes.:)
  19. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    (Did y'all not sign up for the email list? There's an option for "every patch" on there.)
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  20. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    Ah, neat. Signed up forever ago, only thought it sent emails for major patches.