How Dodge, Counter, and Block Works

Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by 123stw, Aug 9, 2011.

  1. 123stw

    123stw Member

    After some investigation, I have reverse engineered how they works.

    Checking order
    Critical -> Dodge -> Counter -> Block

    Only one can be triggered at one time. This means that, a critical hit will bypass all dodge/counter/block.

    1. Dodge amount = % chance to dodge
    2. Dodge prevents all damage

    1. Counter amount = % chance to counter
    2. Counter prevents all damage
    3. Counter hit may be block/dodge/counter, counter can go on indefinitely until another process breaks the chain (dodge/crit).

    1. Block amount = % chance to block
    2. The numbers shown on top left are not accurate when block is involved.
    3. Block reduces normal damage (crushing/slashing/blasting) by 3/4, round up, process after armor absorb and resist.
    4. Block also reduces non normal damage (everything else unaffected by armor absorb) by 1/2, processed after resist.

    Suppose you have 100% block, 20 armor absorb, against a monster with 100 slashing, 100 piercing, and 100 toxic

    When you are hit, you will receive 20 slashing damage, 50 piercing damage, and 50 toxic damage.
  2. Solstice

    Solstice Member

    Excellent work.
  3. J-Factor

    J-Factor Member

    <blockquote>Block reduces normal damage (crushing/slashing/blasting) by 1/4</blockquote>

    Do you mean reduces <b>to</b> 1/4?
  4. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    Based on the example he gives, Armor Absorb is subtracted from the total damage to create X. X is then reduced by 75% so only 25% of the remaining damage penetrates.

    It also cements the position of Block as being drastically superior to Armor Absorb since it can be used to reduce elemental damage.
  5. 123stw

    123stw Member


    Not only is blocking superior to armor absorb, high blocking also make armor absorb obsolete due to their processing order. As the example shows 20 armor absorb only help reduce 5 damage whenever something is blocked.

    However you still need armor absorb for times when block fails, or when critical occurs.
  6. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    Indeed! And for the very beginning of the game, which is the one time where Armor Absorption really shines. Still, it is fascinating to learn that critical hits bypass all defenses and explains why critical hit focused builds are so successful in this game.
  7. fishofmuu

    fishofmuu Member

    So I guess if you had the choice between +dodge and +counter, you have even MORE reason to go for +counter over dodge.
  8. Incendax

    Incendax Member

    It also means that if you have a sufficiently high Counter it is actually deterimental to increase your Dodge since you are denying yourself counterattacks.
  9. 123stw

    123stw Member

    In terms of survival alone, having dodge will always increase the chances unless counter rate is 100%. As it currently stand that is legitimately impossible.

    The way I see it, the best of the 2 is much more link to how high you can push each of them, over rather or not a counter hit is made. 90 dodge will be way better than 80 counter because it doubles your survivability. Also in permadeath consistency is far more important than average. This is why block is still way ahead of the other two because it can be pushed much higher.

    I think both of them should be considered to maximize survivability. No reason to purposely lower your dodge at this point.
  10. fishofmuu

    fishofmuu Member

    Well, right now, an unarmed character with two duelist bucklers (or the runed +4 one) can easily get +25 counter with a fedora.... but even with optimal equipment, you'll get ~1/3 counter, and that's at a loss of other good stats. You'd have to abuse TTiAW like crazy to get anywhere near 50%ish, which is probably where you'd have to be to consider dropping dodge.

    Even so, it definitely shows that +1 counter for -1 dodge is completely worth it for a melee character.
  11. fishofmuu

    fishofmuu Member

    ..... while, on the other hand, will skills alone, an unarmed character can get over 50 block (granted, that's a lot more skill points than just unarmed for counter).

    With optimal equipment, the unarmed character can also get another 50 block (but that's exactly 50 with the best unenchanted equipment, although you can get near that through smithing).

    100% block is obtainable, but barely. Counter > dodge > block, but that's on a 1:1 scale. Personally, when comparing equipment, if you think of dodge as being 1 'point' of value, then block would be .75 (One point of dodge reduces damage by 100%. One point of block reduces damage by 75%). Counter would be something like... 1.1? I dunno.

    Edit: Derp. One point isn't 100% or 75%... just it's 1% more chance to activate that 100% or 75% reduction.
  12. 123stw

    123stw Member


    I don't think so.

    If you currently have 20 counter and 40 dodge, then +1 counter will only add 1.27% more survivability, while 1 dodge offers 1.69% more survivability.

    So again, which one you can stack higher directly affects the tradeoff you are making. If your skillset will add dodge and not counter, you better off stacking dodge than counter on everything else.

    As for total counter, you forget about ring of iron thorn, which is guarantee with Smith and provides 16 counter.
  13. Tacroy

    Tacroy Member

    So what's the maximum counter you could get from skills and equipment alone? This kinda depends on how things work...

    * = not considered, might not stack properly or stacks sub-optimally.

    Unarmed: +13 counter, works if you have shields equipped
    *Dual Wielding: +10 counter, I don't know if it works with Unarmed
    *Swords: +8 counter, only works when you have at least one sword equipped but swords don't come with much counter.

    Guaranteed items (smithing and archaeology):
    Fedora: +3 counter
    Pair of Rings of Iron Thorns: +8 counter each (+16 total)
    Pair of Runed Iron Skjoldrs: +4 counter each (+8 total)

    Random items:
    Ostentatious Tunic: +2 counter
    Gladiator Sandals/Fabulous Rogue Boots: +1 counter
    *Gladius: +2 counter each

    So that's a max of:

    13 (unarmed at max) + 3 (fedora, start with it) + 16 (rings, smith them) + 8 (shields, smith them) + 2 (tunic, find it) + 1 (boots, find them) = 43% counter, without including the bonus from base stats (1/2 of your Savvy) or artifact reroll abuse (which you can do, because you took Archaeology). If Dual Wielding's counter bonus works with Unarmed, then that's 53% counter.

    Essentially, half the time enemies would get slapped in the face for daring to attack you.
  14. fishofmuu

    fishofmuu Member

    Dual wielding doesn't work with unarmed. Also, counter is not 1/2 of savvy.
  15. 123stw

    123stw Member

    Counters bonus from dual wield doesn't work, at all.

    You can probably skip the boot and the armor for something else. For the 3 counter you can get a lot more block into this build. (aluminum armor/boot, both craftable), it provides a second layer of protection when your counter fails.
  16. Desi

    Desi Member

    Wow, Block is useless.
  17. fishofmuu

    fishofmuu Member

    @Desi Eh... with 75% reduction, that's pretty huge late game. Arch Diggles, for example, do over 30 damage per hit, and that's without taking melee power into account. Late game, block can reduce maybe 5-10 damage per hit, and that includes piercing and other damages. Compared to dodge or counter, yes block is 'useless'.... but you can fairly easily obtain 100% block, and you're not getting that much dodge/counter.
  18. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    @fishofmuu How could you ever get 100 block? No, really, I must be missing something.
    You'd have to be really high level, and pick every skill that gave you block, and then hope for every anvil of Krong to give you 3 block each, and find 2 or 3 anvils per floor, and wear the best block armor/gear in the game, and then, maybe then, you'd come close to 100 block.

    My gameplay isn't amazingly based in calculating percentages, that's not exactly how I play games, unless I'm playing Disgaea 3, and only when stealing, :) but I like getting counter/block/dodge, I just don't go out of my way to get them. Let alone try to maximize them. If I wanted a game with that level of micromanagement, I'd play Sim City 3000 again.
  19. 123stw

    123stw Member

    You can get 100% block if you use unarmed, smith, master of arm, and archaeology. Just don't expect it on any other characters.
  20. DavidB1111

    DavidB1111 Member

    Wow. Okay. Didn't realize that was possible. But, um, how exactly? The fedora gives 3, right? Smithing allows for the rings of iron thorns, which have block, right?
    Unarmed gives big bonuses, two shields, would help...yes, I guess that all would work.