Discussion in 'Dungeons of Dredmor General' started by Graceclaw, Jan 5, 2015.

  1. Graceclaw

    Graceclaw Member

    So I have this build that I think has a DECENT shot at making it to Dredmor, but I think I've gotten crappy items/I need a direction to go with them.

    I got down to level 8 without a problem, really, but then I ran into a mandregora (the rutebega of floor 8) and it kicked my ***. All it needed to do was counter one hit and dodge another and I was down to like 23 health. I had to pop a ton of stuff just for a normal enemy. I managed to clear the floor, but I noticed that my health sank FAST. If RNG did not favor me (hitting them, lifestealing from them), I quickly went down to the danger zone.

    My question is: Is this a problem with my build, or should I set my items up differently? It took until I cleared the zoo on this level to get a second ring.......I'm not quite sure what I should go for as far as armor goes- I kinda wanted a "necro-sorcerer" build where I had high durability and meelee capabilities (Vegan, Communist), but who could still clear zoos and be a magic threat (astro, necro).

    Yes, I know that parachute pants make no sense for a mage/armored person, but LITERALLY all I've gotten in 9 floors (NTTG kicking my butt, I guess) is those and pirate breeches. No lies.

    Did I manage my leveling wrong? Should I replace Communism or Veganism with better skills for tanking? Should I give up on this file and just play?

    I ask because I've gotten this far with a few other characters, but no further than level 9. In 50+ hours of playing on Dwarven Moderation with Permadeath. I'm kinda sick of getting stopped here.

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  2. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    It's a very odd build, imho. Don't get me wrong, you are using a few of my favorite skills. But it seems like you couldn't make up your mind as to what you were going for, so you went in too many directions at once.

    You have the makings of a decent melee build OR a decent mage build, but you don't have sufficient magic power for the mage side, and you don't have sufficient defense for a melee guy. For the future, it might be best if you focus on one and just go for it.

    As far as replacing Communism or Veganism for 'something better for tanking', that's absurd, since those are really good skills for tanks. If you want to go in the Tank direction, you shouldn't have focused so much on Necro -- that, imho, is the weakest link. Swap it out for Master of Arms, or Shield Mastery or even Unarmed (or even Demonology, if you insist on the whole Gish path).

    As for rescuing your build right now, my suggestion would be to switch to a more mage-focused build -- as you say, you cannot stand up to melee, and it's not going to be getting any better as you go deeper. You still want to invest more in burglary (one of the best survival skills there is for a melee OR non-melee build). Since you've already been getting into trouble, I would do that ASAP. Next, maybe focus on Astrology, and/or ley walker.

    That is, unless you get lucky and get much better gear for the melee side. In that case, do the opposite of what I'm telling you lol. Communism, btw, is great for melee builds -- it's one of my favorite melee skills, and I think you underrate it.

    In the future though, I would decide in advance if you are going full-on Melee (fighter, rogue, or gish) or Ranged (ie. mage) and try to stick with it. IF the drops don't go your way, you can TEMPORARILY switch it up, so long as you don't get too deep (as you saw). You still should keep your eye focused for the long haul.
  3. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    At this point I would dump your current sword for something better. I'm guessing from the stats shown that your current sword was from a chest of evil, and looks good to you because it does 20:dmg_toxic:. Trick is, toxic damage is really unreliable. There's a ton of monsters with 10 or more :resist_toxic: (basically anything that looks like a robot or a golem). So that damage boost the sword is giving is far less in practice than it may seem in theory. Do you have a back-up weapon stashed in your portable wizardcave? A weapon with a better damage type (especially :dmg_righteous:) would help, even if it's a 2 to 4 points lower in overall damage, by avoiding Toxic you'll likely come out ahead against many of the hardest foes in the game.

    Mandragora's have 20 :resist_nercomatic:, which means they're immune to your necro-buffs and the tenebrous rift. If they're specifically the thing that's giving you trouble, it might be worth skipping the floor you're on. Sure, things get progressively tougher overall as you go deeper, but that doesn't always hold true for every situation. Sometimes there's a specific monster that's harder for a character because of their stats -- usually damage type you can't defend against, or a resistance that makes the foe immune to your best attack -- and the best bet when that happens is to book it to the nearest stair down and skip most of the problem floor. If leaving the floor unfinished bugs you because you're a completionist, remember you can always swing back later to complete it when you've got a few more levels worth of HP and abilities under your belt. I skip that particular floor nearly every time I play Promethean (as half the monsters have insane :resist_conflagratory:) and I never feel like I regret missing the XP or items from it. Nothing on the next floor down has nearly as much necro-resist as the Mandragora does (the closest is the Fell Carrot at 6:resist_nercomatic: instead of 20).

    A bit of general advice after that. The following won't work against the mandragora right now (due to their resists), but in general: I'd suggest you swap out that sword for a book or orb that gives :mana_regen: (or :resist_nercomatic:), then back-track a little to stock up on high-quality boozes from the vending machines on previous floors. Then spam the rift, it will kill just about anything (and is especially good when facing large groups). I feel the opposite of Haldurson's assessment of Necro (where he said it was the weakest link). If you can get the resists to protect you from yourself, necro is one of the two best room-sweeping skills in the game. Celestial Aegis (the last buff in Astrology) will give more :resist_nercomatic:, so that'll help you survive your own rift at the same time that the extra wizard levels provide you with more mana and cheaper spells. Ideally it's the thing you cast any time 3 or more monsters appear in a group. You need lots of mana to make that reliable, but it's a thing of (horrific, eldritch) beauty when you can get it going.
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  4. Graceclaw

    Graceclaw Member

    I was trying to be a gish with Necro as my "engine" skill. And Communism/Veganism are cool, but the stats alone don't really make you very tanky imo- I'd be able to go toe-to-toe much better if I had, say, Master of Arms instead of Vegan.

    I've spent a lot of my time trying to find a working gish build. I made it to level 10 with one, but ended up stepping on a trap and dying iirc. I wish I remembered the exact skills that I chose.....heh.

    So far though, this character isn't dying. I started doing a lot better when I found out that you can stack Cthlon marks, haha. I have no idea how I'm going to face Dredmor with this character though- I haven't found squat in the way of strong bolts or thrown weapons (one HHG, 5 squid bolts, 9 plague bolts is about it). Not even any pearl Wands. Might just have to hit and run with meelee and gope that RNG and my recovery/escapes let me kill him.

    Thanks for your advice, Bergstrom! Things got a lot better when I switched (first to the Invisible Dagger and then to the Chandelier Staff), Spamming the Rift has gotten me this far- I usually end up using it whenever I want and just using the Ley Lines tap to bring all of my mana back.

    Could someone give me some pointers into making a gish build that works? It seems to me that, unfortunately, there is no way to make a HEAVILY armored mage work in this game because heavy armor takes away from magic power. Do I HAVE to go Viking Wizardry/Egyptian Magic/Warlock, or is there something else that I can do to amplify my attacks (Astrology's buff is wayyyy deep into the tree).
  5. r_b_bergstrom

    r_b_bergstrom Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Are you using the other, earlier buff (Radiant Aura) consistently? I'm always kinda amazed how good that first level is, even deep into the dungeon. Every time you get hit there's a 35% chance to trigger an area-affect :dmg_righteous::dmg_aethereal:blast that has a 50% chance to paralyze for 4 turns. That little first-level buff have saved my necroastrologizing bacon so many times.

    I find that the best melee-wizards are usually pure wizard. Adding in warrior classes only helps you get past the first floor. After that, you get more benefit out of the spellcasting stats :)magic_power::mana::haywire:) granted by virtue of every level up being as a wizard. So if you don't mind possibly having to repeat the first floor 3 or 4 times before you get a wizard that survives the fragile first few level-ups, going full-wizard will help a lot on the lower floors where you can't as easily start a "do over" (assuming you use permadeath).

    I also always pick TWO mana-generating skills for a wizard build, not just one. Of ley-walker, blood magic, and alchemy, I pick whichever two seem best for the rest of my wizard build. Having enough mana to spam your best kill spell(s) or keep all your buffs active at once is really critical. A wizard low on mana is a dead wizard. Alchemy is a powerhouse - free booze/mana, cheap healing potions, and 4:resist_acidic: to insulate you from the traps.
  6. Haldurson

    Haldurson Member

    For some mage builds, that's overkill. Egyptian+Astrology, I'll grant you, needs at least 2. Warlockery (granted, a melee skill) can be a mana hog as well. And there can be situations when those mana-draining monsters start appearing in great numbers, that two might be barely enough. But with AE attacks + blood magic, those can be survivable without 2 mana-generating skills. I just would not go so far as to say that you ALWAYS need at least two.
  7. Graceclaw

    Graceclaw Member

    Update: I died to a rocketeer diggle in a portal land because I thought he was a normal diggle and he critted me.

    Very sad. Very very sad.

    I will probably use this build again, with Master of Arms instead of Killer Vegan.

    And yes, Berg, I LOVE Radiant Aura. It's ridiculously good, and I love getting both its proc and the Vegan flash at the same time/consecutively.