Gender and statistics.

Discussion in 'Discussions' started by OmniaNigrum, Jul 26, 2012.

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  1. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Who said they are guys? They could be cross-dressers. (Equally applied to any and all questions there.)

    I dislike the way my post sounds, so I am changing it to this:

    Just because one appears to be one gender, that in no way means they are. Also, clothing means nothing. Same for voice. However, if you tell me that Borderlands 2 and Aliens Colonial Marines features full nudity of everyone in it, that will disturb me more than it probably should in a sane world. :)
  2. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    In an industry that still struggles with having positive female characters (or women at all) in games, it's a little too soon to think that we would see transvestites regularly, and if a game has one such character you can bet they'll advertise the shit out of them, so her assumption is safe.
  3. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    This is exclusively the domain of conjecture. Saying it does not exist because you have not seen it in most other games is not really fair. The industry needs to wake up and realize that 52% of the Human population is born female. I also must note that I never even mentioned transvestites. I am not actually saying there is a definitive gender to any character in these games unless they bother to animate the genitalia for us to decide what they are. And even that leaves some doubts in the minds of some people. (Not a judgment, think what you like.)

    To clarify, I have seen women who looked like men while dressed in gender neutral clothing. Same for men who looked like women in gender neutral garb. I have heard women and men that I absolutely could not determine the gender of by voice. But now I am being told that the gender of all in two unreleased games is known to Althea and Daynab, but I missed the memo? :)

    See my issue here? I will not argue that the industry is fair to either gender, nor to the other options I cannot fully understand. I just think that presuming the police will beat us down may well give them reason to think they should. Understand the metaphor? I could spit out hundreds more such metaphors, but I think you would have to lock the thread and threaten to beat me with a Dwarven whiffle maul before it was done. :p
  4. mining

    mining Member

    *cough* Samus *cough*
    OmniNegro likes this.
  5. Wolg

    Wolg Member

    Just ignore Other M. (The only game in the series that I've put in the "never play this again" box.)
  6. mining

    mining Member

    Thus also fusion.
  7. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    Pretty much what Daynab said. I know as well as anyone else that assumptions about gender can be wrong, and we've all seen people who could be either/or, neither, yadda yadda. Buuttttttttt... As Daynab implied, gaming still largely deals with Male and Female, and its Masculine Females are still Female and its Feminine Males are still Male. It's only when you get into the indie scene that you see much variation on that theme. To extrapolate from that and go "BUT THEY COULD BE WOMEN WHO LOOK LIKE MEN" is to completely avoid the issue and to bullshit yourself (to use a term beloved by George Carlin).

    What we need are more "openly" female characters. Borderlands had a 3:1 ratio of M:F PCs, BL2 w/ DLC is 3:2 as I'm pretty sure that really, really thin weird thing is a guy, their Aliens game is Lots:None and there was even a petition to get them to change it as no females in an Aliens game clearly shows a lack of, um, everything. Alien? Female protag. Aliens? Female protag, female soldiers, young girl. Yadda yadda. That franchise, at least in terms of the films, ended up being Females vs Females. Ripley vs the Alien Queen, anyone?

    And don't get me started on armour, we'll be here all frakking day...
  8. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Women have been noted in the past of complaining of the way they are depicted. Now they are rarely depicted, but the bad depictions are even more prolific. Women at once want men to see them as a fellow Human and not notice their... Attributes. But speaking as a man who has tried to be friendly, I have noticed that women get freaking nuts when a man ignores their "Push-up bra" or lip-liner or whatever other unholy crapola they use to pretend they are something they are not.

    I think a woman looks best wearing a smile. Clothed or not. Take that either way. I still think that is the single best looking thing any Human can wear.

    Statistically upwards from 80% of gamers are male. Women do other things. What? I have no freaking clue. But you either cater to your audience or you go broke. Stereotyping game companies for exclusion is every bit as bad as game companies stereotyping the end users. So please, either make another topic where we can discuss this part of our conversation in peace, or not. This thread is about games. Not the immorality of game makers, nor even the statistics I just coughed up like a hairball. :D

    *Edit* Note that my statistics are likely out of date. I think women are equally capable of gaming, but the statistics in question suggested the term "Gamer" as one who spends no less than several hundred dollars per year on games and gaming equipment. And if you will forgive yet another asinine comparison, Make-up and bras are outrageously expensive. ;p
  9. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I specified that I meant the people who *BUY* games. Women do far less of that than men. Women probably play every bit as much games as men. My Unholy Feline Master reminds me that women *Love* to play games with me... But that is another matter.

    Since you did not quote it, I cannot tell if you noticed my edit.

    If you still dispute this, can you offer any evidence that I am wrong? Note that I do not require proof. I just want to be right, even if it turns out I have to change my tune. I offered no evidence of my 80% claim, and frankly it does not matter enough to search for. But if you think I need to know that Women are more of a game consumer stock than I thought, I would be glad to hear it.

    I am told that women these days usually expect to pay for their part of a first date. If true, that is a dramatic turnaround from my memories. I remember the "Good Old Days" where men treated Women as jewels to be cherished. I still open the door for women, and in a crisis, I expect myself and any other male to literally sacrifice themselves to ensure the best chances of women and children to survive. I think of this as the rule. Is this now the exception?
  10. Loerwyn

    Loerwyn Member

    Chivalry is sexism, simply put. There's politeness, then there's chivalry (and even now, what we call "chivalry" isn't in line with the tradition).

    Anyway, as for stats? How about this article? - It's from last year, so slightly out of date although it should still account for the mass-rise seen via the Wii, DS, Smartphone and Facebook gaming.

    You can't really talk about consumers, either, because within the gaming market you have, well, different markets. The way a seventeen year old male buys games will likely be different to that of a thirty-seven year old woman. Why? Because of the different markets, and the way they're aimed. Casual tends to appeal to the older populace and, on top of that, the female side of things, whereas mainstream tends to be all YOU GOT A DICK? BUY CALL OF DICKS AND DICKS OF WAR AND GET A BIGGER DICK in its marketing, so when you factor in cultural brainwashing blah blah blah, you end up with those titles appealing to a minority of the 37yo Females and a majority of the 17yo Males (and casual would be vice versa, but of course there ARE exceptions such as Angry Birds which transcend markets)

    But no, really, it's as close to 50/50 now as it'll be until the mainstream changes - which is desperately needed. Until Gearbox, Activision, EA and so on can manage to appeal to the other 50% with their games (one barrier being the constant lack of well-designed females if females do indeed appear, let alone are playable), we're going to see this segregation effect.

    In other words; tits sell games, but not just to those who demean themselves by being unable to show control over their appreciation for the feminine form.
  11. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I should 'sig that...:)

    Alright. We are actually talking two separate things. We are not going to get anywhere discussing this further. Both of us have our opinions and we are both entitled to believe what we do.

    This is an awful amount of text to point out that women play games as much as men. But I give up. I cannot convince you that men spend more on games, and I will not use the cowards weapon of choice saying they are spending their husband's money. (I do not believe that could be verified anyway.)

    I see kids being raised with video games everywhere. It is not the world I grew up in, and being a recluse, I may still not notice how far it has gone. So I will do something I almost never do. Watch carefully...

    I concede. :D
  12. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Please feel free to correct me on any post I make that you think is in error. If it is regarding gender statistics, please make your case here if it would otherwise be a de-rail of the thread.

    I will read anything put here, so long as it is not pure drivel or hate-mongering. Be civil as the rules of the forum requires. And please at least attempt to be respectful of everyone equally.
  13. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

  14. SkyMuffin

    SkyMuffin Member

    Do you mean my gender poll thread? I was really surprised to see it explode into such a big thing...mostly because I started it, then was away from the forums for a few days, and when I came back it had totally changed.

    As a transgender/non-binary person I was a bit hurt when I first saw the comments about "political correctness"...for me and a lot of people like me, "political correctness" is literally about having a big part of who you are acknowledged as even existing, and having that be respected. The buzzwords are often used to delegitimize those existences. But it was nice seeing people who "got it" also.

    *shrug* People are still learning about this stuff. I understand that.

    edit: I just noticed this came out of the "what games are you playing" thread. I've noticed a lot of blatant sexism in games before. Sometimes it is so transparent (like in LoL with champ design) that it is just ridiculous. But I suspect that if I said something about it beyond certain safer spaces (on the LoL forums versus on Tumblr, for example) that people would just yell a bunch of crap and shut down my concerns.

    I bet there's a lot of women out there who feel the same way. They just don't bother pointing out that something is really insulting or hurtful because the controversy it would stir up is not worth the effort.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  15. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    I have moved the other posts here as to clean up the other thread, but we are not doing this again right now.
    OmniNegro likes this.
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