Exotic Damages and You!

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Lorrelian, Apr 11, 2012.

  1. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    Very well. I removed the redirect of the mod index so it's still 6. I'd rather not to clutter the category more than that though.
  2. SkyMuffin

    SkyMuffin Member

    The information here is AMAZING. Should help me a lot in future play throughs. Thank you for doing all of this :D
  3. Kind of surprised no one has brought this up yet, considering the topic is modding and damage types, but... how about making damage types that are entirely new altogether? I've looked through all the game data and can't seem to find that stuff. New damage and resistance types could open a whole other barrel of fun for the modding community. Lots of great potential there.
  4. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    No can do, Prince of Foxes. If you use a damage type that doesn't exist, DoD defaults to existential.

    Some of us tried...
  5. I noticed you can't do it, but that's why I was saying that we should be able to. Why would they not allow us? For my Lactomancer, I'd love to makes a "Lactose Intolerance" debuff that makes your milk-based skills hit harder.
  6. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Because allowing people to do it makes the game less idiot-proof. And that is almost always a bad thing, considering that most players are rather, well, lacking in competency.

    That way if someone was stupid enough not to give a darn about him having misspelled the name of some damage type, the game defaults to one of the already-existing types instead of crashing. Which means that wannabe-modders aren't going to bother us about their games crashing as often. Which is a very good thing for our sanities.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  7. I definitely see your point and agree with you. I just think it would be fun for those who DO have the skill and maturity to set up some pretty interesting mechanics
  8. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Wish in one hand....

    It would require a rewrite of the executable to add any new damage types. And there are too many existing things far more important than a single person's desire for new damage types to be addressed.

    Besides, there are far more than enough damage types already. More would complicate things in ways you may not consider. Add another and the current damage types will be less likely to be added to a weapon when you Krong it. Monsters would have to be rethought and have some minor resistances added and others lowered to compensate, and armors would have to be adjusted too. And these are just a few minor issues that come up with adding damage types. Really if you want more damage types you are just not being creative enough with those that already exist.

    Add it to the modding requests thread.
  9. I actually find your post a little insulting and condescending. I'm a game designer. I've coded them from scratch. I know all about balancing, and I'm quite aware of all the work that would have to go into new damage types. All I was saying is that it would be nice if we had the OPTION to go that deep with our mods if we wanted to. That's all. And saying I'm not creative enough to work with what we already have, well, if everyone thought that way, society, culture, and technology would never advance. I just GOT this game like, 2 days ago, and as this whole forum section is about modding and this topic is about in-depth analysis of exotic damage types, my inquiry was in no way unreasonable.

    The whole idea behind modding in the first place is to create something new and being creative. Just because something might be hard and very involved doesn't mean it's not worth doing, especially when you consider the fact that everyone is different and enjoys different things. But even all of that aside it's obvious that, at some point, the game will support total conversion mods which will involve massive rewrites and almost certainly new/different damage types. What if I wanted to make my own full-on, dairy-themed expansion? Shouldn't I have the option?

    And lastly, and possibly most important, why do you even care? If you don't like a particular mod idea, then don't use it. Chastising me and basically calling me short-sighted and "not creative enough" is both inflammatory, base, and pointless. My question was already addressed in a much more respectful manner, so there was no need for you to say anything at all on the matter. It was just an innocent musing, and you went out of your way to belittle me, assuming that because I happen to not be quite as aware of how this particular game's code works than you are that I'm completely unaware of the intricacies involved with such a change. It is attitudes like yours, sir, that suppress the modding community, and creativity in general, when we should be openly welcoming fresh ideas and encouraging the growth of both the community and ourselves. There is never any need or excuse for anything more harsh than respectful and constructive criticism, and the next time you see a question or idea that you think is "not important" or "too hard", maybe you should consider that maybe it is you who is short-sighted.

  10. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I am not going to kiss your ass. The phrase that apparently pissed you off is this one. Read it again.

    "Really if you want more damage types you are just not being creative enough with those that already exist."

    That is it. Did I insult you? I must be stupid. I simply do not see how that is insulting to say that what you want can be done with resources already in the game.

    "Chastise" me for speaking my mind all you want. It will change nothing here. That is why the last line of my post said to add it to the modding requests thread. That is where your opinion will be considered.

    I did not say you were short sighted. But you specifically said that I am. And I am the one being insulting? You say you just got the game two days ago. Give it some time. If you still think there is not enough exotic damage types and everyone else should have to deal with another likely redundant resistance and damage type for everything, then that is your opinion. And most would not agree.

    As you yourself said, your question had already been dealt with. You however choose that the answer was not good enough for your high and mighty two day old views. I could be insulting here, but I will not bother.

    Rebuke me again if you feel the need, but it would be time better spent posting your request in the modding requests thread. Here is the thread itself. (See? I am not just an ass. I can be useful even to those with the massive experience of two days.)

    *Edited to not be so much of a jerk. But I left it in so you can see what I said. I really hate when I am halfway through typing a reply and people change their posts without the parts I am replying to, so they are there, but I regret my overreaction.*
  11. mining

    mining Member

    You can put debuffs on enemies which reduce, say, their X resistance (where X is, say, hyperborean) and it'll mostly affect that classes skills, as well as offer synergies with other skills.

    IMO its a design error to want to add complexity to a system and reduce opportunity for synergy, especially in a game like Dredmor where 90% of the point of having 7 skills is to choose them for synergistic purposes - if there's a skill which synergises with itself, cool. It just means it'll either be OP in itself, or UP in itself, and if its UP in itself nobody will want to play it.

    Further, lets say I add a skill, X. It deals "Herp-a-derp" damage. That damage type is now stale and artificial - because no mob resists it or takes more damage from it. It's dull and not meaningful, and there's no opportunity for the player to feel cool for using it - because its just "If it moves, cast this at it, its a good move" or "Don't cast this, its better to do something else".

    Dredmor has some balance assumptions with damage types (Righteous damage is great so don't overuse it {*cough Fax cough*}, conflag damage has limitations but is good for some areas, necro starts to fall off, etc.) By adding your own, you're eliminating all of this balance for the sake of a constant damage skill.

    Edit: And there's no point being snarky at people, its their theories and actions that you need to keep an eye on.
  12. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    You know, I'd be glad if you didn't start ranting in such a "tone"* the moment someone replies to you with a viewpoint that is the opposite of yours. OmniNegro said what he wanted to say, but at the very end he did tell you to go to the modding request thread and write about your idea, which is exactly what every one of us would have done if we wanted it to be added to the game. So asking him (in a rather acidic tone, it appears to readers) if there's something wrong with you wanting to have an option to do something is kind of, well, unnecessary, because he did tell you what can be done, even if it was just a small part of his post.

    I reckon OmniNegro (not only he, most probably) is also a little bit set off by the appearance of a wild JadestoneX that happened a few days ago, and you getting personal will probably only result in a repeat of that scenario.

    That being said, I'd be really grateful if you just shook hands and forgot past misdeeds, or something like that.
    OmniNegro, try not to scare newcomers (the last one talked with you before he flipped, too, though I reckon it was my and Essence's fault back then). This time there is some truth in Prince of Foxes' statement, it's just that he can't see the whole picture, which is pretty normal for most people who have at least a shred of intellect. You know because you've seen what can happen on this forum, but he's new there. Thanks.
    And Prince of Foxes, please try to be understanding. I know it can be irritating to see one's post rebutted if our wishes aren't unjustified, but he is partially right. You can post that idea in the modding request thread and try to use another damage type in the meantime (yes, I know there's a lack of water-based damage type that isn't related to ice, it pains me too but I think it's possible to get around it). Thank you.

    PS. We're all short-sighted. It's just that nobody wants to admit it, not even I, and not even you. But it's fine, because we have other people to help us with seeing things we can't see.

    * I'm using the word "tone", but it is merely an assumption of what your tone would be there, so I decided it's more appropriate to put this word inside quotation marks.
    Prince of Foxes and OmniNegro like this.
  13. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Agreed Kazeto. And for my part, I apologize. I really did not intend to offend you Prince of Foxes.

    I hope we can shove this behind us and just enjoy the forums and the game.

    Either way, I hope that some day it is possible to add custom damage types for mods. But I think that will not be soon.
    Prince of Foxes likes this.
  14. Lorrelian

    Lorrelian Member

    I think the forums just got a new motto.

    On the topic of adding a whole 'nother damage type to the game, such a thing would probably need an entire thread of its own to hash out, assuming Gaslamp is even willing to take the time needed to add such a capability to the game. It seems like a fairly time consuming demand for what is likely a limited return, for reasons much like mining mentioned. Yes, there are ways to mitigate the problems he raised, but if only one or two modders want to put that much work into it, I'd rather see Nicholas keep working on Odin than put all the time and effort into making such a mod possible.

    But I'm just a forum user, and not a modder at that, so what's my opinion matter anyway?
    Prince of Foxes, OmniNegro and Kazeto like this.
  15. FaxCelestis

    FaxCelestis Will Mod for Digglebucks

    Really, the only damage type I'd want to add is sonic, but you can sort of fake it with blasting anyway.
  16. Really, all of you are correct, and I am also very sorry for any part I had in upsetting anyone. That is NEVER my intention. The way it appeared to me was that I was asking a simple (if a bit newbish) question, and I got my head bit off for it. Compounding that was the fact that I've barely slept the past few days and dealing with life-problems, so I was probably much more sensitive and defensive than I usually am. Normally, nothing upsets me.

    I guess the main problem I had was that I am a very creative person and enjoy all kinds of creative activities, from music to writing to modding/making games from scratch. And to be blunt, I'm pretty darn good at most creative endeavors when I get used to them. But I can not even TELL you how many times I have joined some new community only to be almost instantly torn to shreds because I wasn't aware of some complex, implicit taboo I accidentally violated by asking an innocent question. And to further ad insult to injury, it's usually accompanied by an insult to your intelligence and character in many a varied and colorful form.

    On the other hand, I can see it from your peoples' perspective, too. You probably get a lot of uppity, sparkly-eyed, quixotic types who just want to jump right in and make the "BESTEST MOD EVAR!" and then go all Robert Pattinson on you and proceed to mope and sparkle in a corner, praying that their tears don't make their eye-liner run, all because you suggested to take the time to do some research before trying to save the world. I realize, in retrospect, that you guys don't know me at all. So, what for me was just a theoretical musing and trying to understand the mechanics, to YOU probably just looked like another one of those whippersnappers.

    I actually have a degree in game design, have my own dev studio (though most of us are too busy to meet and work as much as we should) and I have been developing, coding, designing, and playing games of all kinds basically since I was in middle school and a few instances in elementary school. I remember having computer classes where we had to write the entire program first just so we could use it to learn simple math and stuff. I first learned to code in batch and QBASIC, and old-school HTML in notepad when the internet came out (Yes, I was definitely around for that). That should give you some idea of my experience. In essence, I reacted because I felt belittled and unfairly judged, but I also realize that you people had no way of really telling me apart from the rest of the rabble. I sincerely hope to change that and become and strong and active member of this community.

    P.S.~In retrospect, I know it's completely ludicrous, but in my mind it cracked me up to think about dealing milk-based damage, and having a "Lactose Intolerance" debuff. Really, I just want to be able to debuff them so they are only weak to Lactomancy spells. I'm planning on using :dmg_putrefying: (rancid milk, for example), but I don't want to lower their :resist_putrefying: across the board, just to the damage dealt by milk-based skills. I sort of have an idea of how I might do that, but again, I'm new, so I'm not sure about the syntax used to produce such an effect.
    Kazeto, OmniNegro and Daynab like this.
  17. Daynab

    Daynab Community Moderator Staff Member

    We're all friends here, misunderstandings or overreactions (from both sides) happen, no worries.

    edit: And welcome! glad to have you aboard.
  18. Realistically-speaking, that would be a good damage type to add because it could provide interesting side-effects. Water would be a pretty solid addition (kinda surprised it's not standard), though you could easily handle drowning with :dmg_aphyxiative: . Nature would be another interesting type with some fun potential, but many of the effects could probably be Mickey-Moused using a clever balance of other damage types.
    Kazeto likes this.
  19. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Don't worry about it. If you find yourself stumped with the code, just ask anyone there who has experience with mods. It's refreshing for us, too, since it takes our minds of our own abominations that we call mods. And I hope you'll be able to succeed; the idea of milk-based magic sounds like a fun addition to use with the Killer Vegan skill (though I'm aware vegans don't really drink milk, nor do they eat cheese, but here it seems that "Vegan" is really "Vegetarian").

    PS. And out of people who complain, most do it because they want something done. Cases like this when someone is dissatisfied with lack of flexibility for creating things on his own, are pretty rare. So don't worry about it, for as long as you try to be nice, you'll get along with us.
  20. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Milk is good. Righteously good. :dmg_righteous: would work, and almost nothing in the game currently resists it at all. And you need not worry too much about debuffs being too potent since few weapons use any measurable amount of :dmg_righteous:.

    As for our misunderstanding, I would prefer to ignore it. I appreciate that you did not intend to start the avalanche that damned nearly pushed us into a fight. :p I have no hard feelings on the matter.