Do Polearms get worse later on?

I started a character with Polearm + Dual Wielding + Geomancy

And I can't help but notice how insane the damage is compared to going any other weapon. I'm level 4 at the moment with +26 Melee Power and I basically skipped the first two levels because I could one-hit anything.

Because the Polearm skills don't require a PA, even if you're not a PA user it gives you a ranged attack instantly, and 3 invested skill points gives you more damage than any other weapon tree (even if you're not using a PA).

If I had Viking Wizardry it'd be even higher, and I could probably boost it with other skills, but is it really meant to be that high? It seems really out of place compared to the other weapon skills.

http://imgur.com/aatE4

 

Once I found a +20 necro Lirpa in a chest of evil , I started dealing 100-130 crits on level 8 enemies (with maxed polearm skills , no dual wield) but it seems to become less effective on later enemies due to rising armor and block values. There is no polearm matching the raw damage of other high-end weapons , so it probably becomes poor by level 15 ; for vanilla dungeon runs stopping at level 10 , though , this seems to be the most optimal weapon type.

Given that polearms can attack at range , they can give quite a few free hits depending on the situation. The extra control alone makes polearms worthwhile. I think the raw stat boosts should be reduced in exchange for better scaling proc attack damage , given that those are easily blocked / resisted later on.

 

Polearms do seem to be a bit OP from what I've seen, at least in the early game. You get an AE ranged attack at the very beginning (that should probably be reserved for later in the tree). Also, while other tier 1 weapons have a base damage of 1 or 2, Polearms are a 3. I could understand giving Polearms a boost in damage IF and ONLY IF they had some corresponding disadvantage (such as not being able to dual-wield them, which kind of makes sense for such heavy weapons).

The tree has two ranged/AE attacks and 1 ranged non-AE attack with an unreasonably generous 2-turn cool-down. And the fact that critters hit, are often unable to move on the following turn, meaning that you can kite -- this means very little risk to anyone with the skill.

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept. But it does need to be tuned a bit.

One thing that I've been thinking that Dredmor lacks are two-handed weapons. There are lots of weapons that one could imagine as being two-handed, but the game system apparently doesn't allow for the concept of forcing the issue. You can dual-wield any weapon as the concept of weight is not an actual factor in the game.

 

While polearms are a bit powerful they're also fun.
I think the team did a great job of making both of the new weapons skill trees interesting and characterful while maintaining a melee feel. I look forward to the other trees being redone at some point (perhaps a future expansion).
Minor nerf to raw damage wouldn't be a bad idea though. Or something else... Perhaps, similar to Haldurson's suggestion a penalty similar to the dual wield penalty could apply anytime there's an off-hand item. I realize this isn't coming anytime soon though as it would require entirely rebalancing the tree.

Oh, and Naginata and Partisan craftability levels (3 and 4, respectively) are switched relative to item power (even as indicated by number of stars). That gives a significant advantage to polearms with a crafting class.

 

I think in the end, Polearm does begin to suffer compared to the other weapon tress. Its reduction of critical hits really begin to hurt later on when you can't negate enemy's counter with your own crits. Even though you do have ranged attacks, enemies can still counterattack you despite being at range. Also, its accuracy gain is much lower then other weapons. Enemies like Mustaches can be especially dangerous with their high crit/dodge chance.

 

I feel like the activated abilities of Talhoffer's Lunge Strike and Count Tilly's Long-range Pike Bombardment should be switched.

 

The only problem on the polearms is that the most powerful weapon of th class is the Lance of Holy Sacrifice who have only 31 total atack, while the new weapons of the other classes have much more, as sword with 50 and daggers with 46.

 

Actually, one simple thing you might do is increase the melee power penalty for the two pike stances.
This actually scales nicely I think, as the penalty overwhelms early melee power and thus is effectively muted and then increases to meaningful levels mid-range and has, effectively, enhanced power (as a % of effective damage) during late stages due to the higher armor classes of enemies (and the inherent non-linearity of those calculations).
The knockback effects are awesome. Love them. But they essentially mean you ~1/2 your hits 'for free' (without retaliation).

 

Monsters can still counterattack you, at least with the beginning ability. I died by counterattack from several squares away.

 

@darius yeah, which is good, but that doesn't change that your'e still getting about 1/2 your hits for 'free', as in no follow-up attack, all attacks are counterattackable

 

It's even better if you dual-wield polearms, because you get another +8 Melee Power on top. Not critting is a small price to pay, really.

Might just need to be toned down a little bit in regards to the base bonuses, the abilities themselves aren't too bad. In fact it's probably just Very Long Stick Damage Enhancement Training causing the damage chasm between PAs and other weapons.

http://imgur.com/rzr4L

EDIT: Is Plutonic Fist intended to be able to be used with any weapon? It's basically another Inevitable Victory Stance, but the description and name suggest it's an unarmed thing. I'm assuming it's because buffs can't/don't check for equipped weapons anyway, since Inevitable Victory works with any weapon too.

 

Doesn't the lance also grant you Lutefisk Smites? That would raise it's total melee power to a lot closer to the other high-end melee weapons, but with exotic damage thrown in
Also, I don't think they drop off, it's more that you get nearly all of the power very early on, I can usually craft a Gun Dao at level 3 (Player level) right now, which seems kinda wrong.

Also, Plutonic Fist transforms anything into rock, even your polearm. Just imagine you had a giant rock at the side you hit people with.

 

I agree. Games like this are much better the more distinct different things are.
We don't need every weapon skill to provide between 10-12 /// with another 8-12 // because that means the choice between weapons is meaningless to anyone but power-gamers.
Much better for one weapon to get only a few damage bonuses, but to provide extra crit chances and for another to get lots of extra damage, but can't be dual wielded.
And if a skill needs rebalancing, nerf the things it's already bad at, or buff the things it's already good at, rather than just making them the same as everything else. Sure, it's harder to balance that way, but a single player game doesn't need to be perfectly balanced anyway.

 

Having played more with melee build recently, specifically duel wielding with polearms and axes, I don't think polearms bonuses are overpowered at all. The only thing about them is that they come early +5 melee power on second level up is really great.
Whether the stances are OP is open to debate, but not anymore than most magic builds and, imo, much mroe fun to play

[Unrelated: ClockworkKnight + Smithing + Tinkering + Perception + DuelWield + Polearms + Axes is a LOT of fun, and goes together remarkably well; level up order is important though if you want to take advantage of CK]

 

Honestly, it's not the bonuses that had me thinking it was OP so much as the overall skill, especially taking into account the special attacks, one of the best of which you get by default -- a 4-square AE attack with stun, without a single skill point investment. That's why I said that it's OP particularly in the early game. That skill alone allows you to kite without any points invested in the skill. Really, the only risk involved is with A) new spawns, or B) opening a door to have creatures (especially a hoard of critters) right on top of you, because the stun is hardly ever resisted (at least on level 1). Then you get up a few more tiers, and you get another ranged attack (similar to the first) except not AE, with only a 2 turn cooldown, making your kiting even more effective. Sure, it doesn't do full damage. But who cares because the creatures cannot close with you if they are hit. So you just keep running in circles.

I don't have experience with Pole Arms in the late game, and I'm sure that with more frequent misses and/or dodges, or stun resists, that it's possible that this doesn't last (I can't say). But it's a skill that almost guarantees that you will make it past the first 2 or three levels unless you make some serious mistakes.

NO other weapon skill allows this. At best, daggers allow you one free attack. As OP as Egyptian Magic seems to be, at least it has a mana cost and personal risk involved and some skill point investments necessary. Pole Arms does not have any of that.

 

@Hal You know you can't really "kite" with the lvl 0 polearm ability unless there's only one monster. Same with lvl 0 dagger ability. I don't find that OP.

 

Not with Daggers, or any other weapon EXCEPT POLE ARMS -- that was my point. But yes,, i KNOW THAT i CAN because I've done it. And after I've demonstrated to myself that I could do it, I decided to never take Pole Arms again except if it comes up randomly, because it made the early game boringly easy (at least early in the game). I have no idea why you cannot do this because I find it to be trivial.

Well, technically, I HAVE kited using daggers, but it's not nearly as effective as with Pole Arms as the stun from the tier 1 skill seems to be resisted a lot more often. But with Pole Arms, even if it is resisted, the creatures only get one space closer.

I HAVE kited multiple creatures -- it's not as easy, because, unlike with single creatures, there's a possibility of getting cornered except if you've cleared a couple of rooms or more. If you are clever, you can even line the creatures up so that you can hit multiple targets each time. I know because I've done it.

As I said, you need a bit of room to handle multiple creatures, but with one, it's trivial. With planning and room, you'll kill them all before a single creature can get in range to even hit you once.

 

One more thing -- you don't even actually need to be wielding a pole arm to be kiting using the pole arm skill -- that's part of it as well.