Come Bitch About Skills! [Skills Rebalance Brainstorming]

Discussion in 'Modding' started by Essence, Jun 14, 2012.

  1. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    OmniaNigrum, will you come to my forums and spread the lore of "like" instead of innumerable replies? Please?

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  2. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    OK, as is my typical style, I'm putting out an alpha version for those brave enough to playtest my sh!t. These two files are the CORE GAME FILES (not expansion1/2/3).


    I have not yet done the weapon skills. Those will be done after all the other existing skills have been rebalanced. Be patient. I promise it will be worth it. :)

    Here is the complete changelog:
    NOTE: for Nicholas/GLG: There's only one nerf below; in most cases, I tried to keep things about the same but make them more interesting ("[CHANGE]"), or in some cases outright made them a little stronger ("[BUFF]")


    Shield Bearerer's Block and Piercing Resist lowered fairly significantly.
    Shield Bearer given 3 points of each basic damage resistance on levels 1, 3, and 5.

    1st level now has -20 EDR.
    Each subsequent level has +5 EDR (for a total of +5 EDR if you take the whole tree.)

    WEAPONS [plan to be CHANGED, not intended to get more or less strong, only more interesting.]
    Will be totally revamped to look a lot more like Polearms and Daggers do now. After everything else is done.


    Hand of Belimawr swapped with Unholy Warcry.
    Unholy Warcry's Blasting damage given scaling (.18 * Magic Power)
    Unholy Warcry's debuff increased to -20 Nimbleness, -5 Armor, -5 Melee Power.

    Psychic Vampire's second 'gain mana' trigger was missing an amount="1". I added that back in.
    Transylvation now summons Blink Batty companions rather than regular Batties, and does so 3x more often (66% instead of 22%).

    Vital Siphon now returns at least 1 spell point each time it goes off (which is still only 30% of attacks), plus extra on Animals, Demons, and Others.
    Replaced Steal Spirit with Bloodwrencher, a spell that, for free, deals minor damage to blooded creatures (Animals/Demons/Other).
    Replaced Steal Soul with Essence Siphon, which is as Vital Siphon only it returns double the spellpoints and goes off on every critical hit. Also, this level gives you +5 HP, because seriously.

    Meatshield now gives you a 17% chance to proc Fleshbore on enemies that hit you in combat.

    Solar Inscription is now a permanent mine (i.e. it will go off as many times as stepped on until it expires.)
    Syzygy, when cast, heals you for 1+(2* Sight Radius) HP.
    Celestial Aegis no longer has any mana upkeep. (Compare to Mark of the Black Eyeliner, which does more stuff for less cost but has an upkeep -- I think this is good.)
    Celestial Aegis' brittle upped to 15.

    ALCHEMY [BUFF, but I'm seriously reconsidering this. It's strictly unnecessary; the skill is balanced as is.]
    Alchemy level 2 gives recipe for Potion of Lively Regeneration
    Alchemy level 4 gives recipe for Potion of Replenishment
    Alchemy level 6 gives recipe for Steeled Robe


    ASSASSINATION [CHANGED, could arguably be considered a BUFF but I think the lack of control on Venomous Vengeance makes up for the minor addition to Slim Customer]
    Slim Customer now gives a 12% on-Kill buff that grants +20 Sneakiness until hit.
    Venomous Infusion is no longer an active skill; it now happens automatically 17% of the time when you get attacked in combat. It has been renamed Venomous Vengeance.

    The Toxic Spore Cloud created by Fungal Arts' Puffball is now a permanent mine (meaning it will continue to trigger each time a creature steps on a square within it's radius.) It also now deals 3+(.1 * Savvy) damage rather than a flat 3, and doesn't affect the caster.
    MiniToxicSporeCloud (fungal arts' level 4 proc) now deals 2+(.25*Savvy) damage (used to be a flat 2), is a permanent (until expired) mine, and doesn't affect the caster.
    Fungal Arts level 3 given 'Symbiotic Toadstools', a buff for pets only (target=adjacent).
    Mushroom Transmutation moved to Fungal Arts level 4.
    The final level of Fungal Arts can now correctly drop any kind of mushroom on a kill, and does so 8% of the time (used to be two separate 5% chances, so it's about the same)

    Transdimensional Dodging's downtime increased to 18, and it now triggers Froda's Jump Discontinuity when it's activated, so you can get out of closed rooms you might have gotten stuck in.
    Supremely Sly Side-Stepper now adds an additional (stacking) 30% chance to trigger Adventurer Aikido, because capstone.

    First level of Archery's recovery rate bonus increased to 40.

    Third Sight adds 1 damage that only affects walls.
    Third Sight now gives a 1-turn buff that allows a 100% proc of Luckiest Find on-kill.
    Eye Lasers now also trigger On Fire on the target.
    Eye Lasers now scale 3x Sight on Blasting Damage, 2x TrapSight on Conflagratory damage, and .2x EDR on Aethereal Damage.

    It Belongs in a Museum swapped with Remember Your Charlemagne.

    All effects that used 'burn="1"' now trigger On Fire instead. (Ingition Bolt and a bunch of Voltaic Mine effects, really. Promethean had already been fixed by the GLGuys.)

    Plans for the Future Include:
    Fix the second half of Demonology.
    Fix Broadside (Ruigi's fix.)
    Fix Big Game Hunter...basically the whole thing except Release the Hounds.



    Anyone have anything to add to that? :)

    Attached Files:

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  3. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

  4. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Because somebody just flung this at me from a great height:

    - some skills are getting rebalanced by us, anyway, in 1.1.3
    - weapon skills in 1.1.3 will require you to have teh correct weapon equipped to use them (FOR SOME OF THEM); so will shields.
    - can you note whether a change is to nerf a skill, please, or to increase its potency? I'd like to know this.
    - I think the broadside fix got merged into the patch, but I could be on drugs.
  5. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    That's totally OK; I'll be happy to re-do this to take those changes into account. :)


    In many cases, neither -- it's just to turn something fairly boring (steal spirit/steal soul) into something more interesting. There are more buffs than nerfs, though, mostly because no one has really complained about anything being OP.

    Even better! I haven't gotten there yet, so if that's the case, I'll be happy to see it. :)
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  6. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    OK, so after looking for a long time at Big Game Hunter, I decided everyone's on crack about how it's not all that great, so I only changed a couple of things about it. The last half of Demonology, too, I think is being largely underrated, but I did a bit more to it. Broadside is already fixed as of the last patch, so booyah.

    Here's my proposed changelog for RotDG:


    'Lured' now inflicts a -15 penalty to Block, Dodge, and Counter in addition to it's other effects, so there's a good reason to use Hunter's Lure.
    BGH level 4 had a completely nonfunctional special attack ('Hunter's Strike') that was triggered on kill (meaning it tried to damage the creature that you had just killed.) I switched it from on-kill to on-hit and moved it to level 2. It deals 3+ (1/3 Sneakiness) Percing damage to Animals only on 50% of melee hits.Hunter's Strike had also apparently replaced BGH4's old 'more Grisly Trophies' onKill effect, which is specifically mentioned in the flavor text, so I added it back in. Also, since the flavor text of BGH4 says "we'll give it blood so we can kill it", I took the taxa restrictions off of the Butcher and Grisly Trophies effects that BGH4 gives, and then cut the %-to-proc by half considering they'll go off on everything you touch.

    Celestial Circle now inflicts -40 Nimbleness instead of -12.
    Abyssal Fire now lasts forever. On the downside, it now inflicts -4 Righteous, Hyperborean, and Existential Damage Resist on you, so it's not a brainless, leave-it-on-all-the-time thing. It's still removable.
    Infernal Contract now has percentage chances to inflict it's various downsides, with the more nasty ones being less likely. (They used to be all 100%, so it's more of a gamble thing now.)
    Demonic Form now properly has a downtime (30, with a 13-turn duration, so you can spend just under half your time as a Demon), and to make up for it, gives a +3 Conflagratory damage bonus while in Demon Form.
    Flames of the Heckforge swapped with You Are The Demons, so it's the final level and you can have all your demony goodness without having to take the 'useless' level if you don't want it. (Though realistically, I don't see why anyone is so upset about -4 to each primary stat for 99's a slap in the wrist compared to the damage a severely Corrupted weapon can wreak on your character.)

    Thoughts? Anything I missed in RotDG?

    Anything need addressing in YHTNTEP and/or CotW?
    Vitellozzo, OmniaNigrum and Kazeto like this.
  7. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    Big Game Hunter? I consider it one of the most consistently useful skill trees in the game!

    Just for argument, let me lay out my thoughts here on each skill level:

    1 - Trophy Collector. one of the most potent EXP boosters in the game, and by far the easiest one to use. It can be hard to see HOW MUCH extra experience you're getting, but it's an extra level on most dungeon levels. It's not flashy, I grant you, but it's awesome. When this was level 2 I didn't like BGH at all. Now that it's the initial skill I LOVE IT.

    2 - Butcher. If you're looking for a weakness in the tree, this is it. A few builds love the meat, but mostly it's a bit unimpressive.

    3 - Hunter's Lure. This is a surprisingly good skill. It recharges fast, and gives a solid armor reduction to 5 targets. I suggested that it also debuff :dodge: and/or :block:, but it's very useful even without that tweak.

    4 - Most Dangerous Game. Solid bonuses, and the concept for Hunter's Strike is pretty awesome. Unfortunately, I think Hunter's Strike is bugged. If it were fixed this would be a killer skill. Even without HS the bonuses are not shabby.

    5 - Release the Hounds. Awesome.
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  8. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    Oh thank goodness! Ignore my previous post.
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  9. Mr_Strange

    Mr_Strange Member

    Ok, ONE MORE post. Just noticed this change:

    I hate the Steeled Robe - it's always seemed to me like one of the most useless recipes. Give me Magic Sandals instead!
    OmniaNigrum likes this.
  10. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks


    OK, brave alpha people, the time has come to playtest the RotDG changes!


    Anyone having any issues yet? :)

    Attached Files:

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  11. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    DUR! Nope, it's RotDG. It's the Expansion/Game directory. My bad. :)
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  12. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Get more sleep, Essence.
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  13. Bnips

    Bnips Member

    Could I comment that close encounter feels really really limited and could use some love. I think the main argument people would make is its a skill meant to pad out a relatively strong skill line, that said it seems completely worthless in my opinion.
    Ideas (any one of these would make it feel better in my opinion):
    1. It could remove or interact with bars/gates like the various knock back skills in some meaningful way.
    2. It could pick up items on the ground.
    3. It could open uber chests.
    4. It could be used on enemies to give them either a minor debuff with a damage component (animals/vegetables) or a minor buff (other and robots).
    5. It could be used on the player to give a minor temporary buff possibly with a self damage or partial debuff component (radioactive?, enlightened?).

    Ideas perhaps too complicated, perhaps irrational in I have misjudged the skill.
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  14. Pardon, but how do I install the alpha-bits?
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  15. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    This is just a copy and overwrite for the existing files. Note that these are *NOT* ready for prime time. When they are, I honestly expect they will be bundled into the next patch.

    If you want my advice, just wait for them to be put in the game. They will have most if not all the few issues sorted out by then.

    If however you want detailed step by step instructions, then I will gladly provide them. But first I need to know what OS and what distributer you have the game from. And before this is done, you will no-doubt need all the expansions.

    I am about to get some sleep. But I check the forums regularly. I will be back to see if you are sure you want this, and the responses to those questions.
  16. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    For the record, I have absolutely zero expectation that they'll be worked into the core game, ever. It was a miracle from on high when David asked me if he could steal the first ECSR for 1.0.6 or whatever it was -- I kind of expect them to be more like "oh, no, not again!" than anything else.

    That said, if you want to alpha test these, just rename the skillDB and spellDB files in your Dungeons of Dredmor/Game directory (I like old_skillDB and old_spellDB, personally), and then paste the first two into that directory. then do the same for the skillDB and spellDB.xml files in Dungeons of Dredmor/Expansion/Game directory, and copy the second set into that directory in their place.

    As always, if you do decide to alpha test for me, please to come back here and tell me what went wrong -- because something almost certainly will. :)
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  17. Can't find either directory. Am I right when I assume it's /Users/myname/Library/Application Support/Dungeons of Dredmor/game/ ? Or am I wrong?
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  18. Essence

    Essence Will Mod for Digglebucks

    That's right, you're wrong. :) Assuming you got it from Steam, it'll be something like Program Files/Steam/Common Apps/appfiles/Dungeons of Dredmor/(Expansion/)Game.

    Or something like that. Poke around Program Files/Steam a bit, you'll find it. :)
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  19. Any idea what the Mac equivalent is?
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  20. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I tried to help on this subject, but I have not used a Mac in ages. The last time I did it was years before OSX came out. So I have no idea where it even puts the game data. We need a Mac user to help out.

    On the other hand, if you know how to search for files, you can do that. But there will be multiple instances of these files since they share the same name and are just in different directories. Unless Steam works very differently on the Mac side, you will have to set it to not update the game or any of the expansions or it will delete these changes and restore the files that it thinks you should have.

    I think finding "skillDB.xml" will be the easiest method. You will have to check the path to verify that it is the right one for the right modification posted. But it is actually somewhat trivial. Once you find where the files go, it is just a matter of copying over them. (And specifically overwriting them, but if you want to revert them, all you need to do is tell Steam to "Verify the game Cache" and it will do the aforementioned changes automatically.

    I know there are at least two very knowledgeable Mac users who make mods on this forum. Hopefully one of them can offer some guidance.