Any chance we can have Deadshot back?

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by Stryke, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Member

    Archery kinda is crud. Most archer builds I see use:
    Tinkering - Making max level max quantity bolts is better than having a random chance to reuse the random crappy ones you randomly found in the dungeon, and make crossbows as well. Also trapskill and sneakiness etc.
    Perception - Find ingots to make bolts, more :edr: than Archery gives, shoot from farther away. Also trap stuff, Second Sight etc.
    Unarmed - 4:dmg_piercing: 4:dmg_aethereal: instead of 6:dmg_piercing:, an extra 4:edr:, same :crit:, tons of :block::dodge::counter::melee_power: etc. Instead of ammo recovery, random ranged knockback (that scales to :melee_power: ?!?) and random ranged bleed, you have 2 melee guaranteed knockbacks and random melee bleed/bonecrush/cripple.

    You can add archery to that trio if you want (Crossbow Blast will get the unarmed :melee_power: bonus yaaay) , but 4 supports like burglary/archeology/big game hunter/magical law/fungal/fleshsmithing/psionics/etc would work too.

    So I guess we should think about what Archery needs to be less cruddy, then we can make a noncruddy Deadshot without feeling bad? :(
    OmniNegro likes this.
  2. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    Well, yes. If we do get Archery and Thrown Weapons that are good, then we will be able to get Deadshot (that is, if they decide to bring it back, or if any of our modders finds enough time to code it in, depending on whether it would need changing some hard-coded things or not) back with it being something that doesn't just serve to provide boost to crossbows.

    But that is another thing entirely, and I think that it deserves its own thread dedicated to it, because trying to discuss changes to two skill trees in one thread is guaranteed to make it nigh-unreadable.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  3. Nikolai

    Nikolai Member

    I still believe Archery and Thrown aren't as bad as people make them out to be. Maxing either one allows one to become quite deadly, even with mere plastic bolts/softballs.

    On topic, it's true that a lot of the ideas here would make Archery less useful (or even less popular, at least). Consider that if we did something like a ton of stances, we should make the stances more powerful and not bother with passive stat gains.

    Though I don't think it should just be an entire skill of stances. I feel as though Deadshot would somehow be Assassination for Warriors. Unfortunately I can't imagine how to make an entire skill tree about how to hit more often.

    We could chang its schtick and made it a magic tree about hitting more often, call it Marksmanmancy or something. Not a lot of skills have a few spells and a few Warrior style abilities and passives. And that'd be kind of cool. It'd be a Warrior/Rogue support skill that actually uses your mana, kind of like Viking Magic.

    I hope this doesn't offend those arguing in favor of its re-implementation, but I'm getting more and more inclined Deadshot is kind of a dead horse at this point. More skill trees are more fun? Sure. But if it can't made into a tree people find fun and satisfying, why not just make some other kind of skill?
    OmniNegro and Kazeto like this.
  4. Kyrie

    Kyrie Member

    I think that if we do Deadshot to be usable with any weapon, we cant give any damage bonuses, only :edr: and :crit:. It could suppress the weapon skills.

    Other thing, we are going to remake the build or expand it? Cause as I can see in the Dredpedia, it gives the passive debuffs of the old weapon skills to any weapon, what is VERY nice, but is too small to be an Skill line.
  5. Shwqa

    Shwqa Member

    The problem is that other skill tree do their job better. Archery gives an extra 6:dmg_piercing: unreliable knockback and flesh bore.I would consider all of these skill better for a archery build:
    • Tinkering you will be swimming in 12:dmg_piercing: 4:dmg_slashing: bolts and can easily have the clockwork rail launcher by floor 4-5.
    • Unarmed you gain 2 knockbacks and an extra 4:dmg_crushing:4:dmg_aethereal:4:dmg_piercing: damage
    • Rogue Scientist you get 2 very reliable knockbacks which do massive damage, 2:alchemy:, and can weakening large amount of enemies saving bolts and time
    • Killer vegan gives 5:dmg_righteous:(far superior to :dmg_piercing:) and prevent animals from trying to kill you. Also the massive :life: boost.
    • Wand Lore has 5:dmg_aethereal: (far superior to :dmg_piercing:) and some really nice encursting
    • Polearms have the sensible Swiss defensive stance and lots of long range skill to weaken enemies
    • Viking magic can give 2:dam_voltaic:4:dmg_conflagratory: and has sharka's root
    • Clockwork knight, artful dodger, burglary, lay lines all have nice teleport to give you more room
    • Perception and Astrology give you :sight: allowing you to see enemy farther away allowing to hit them more times
    It not really that archery is that bad it just there are about 17 other skills I would use for an archery build before I would even consider archery.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  6. Kyrie

    Kyrie Member

    Very well. Let me make my shoot.

    First let me put down the effects of the skill line:

    Lv0: Beginner's Luck: Passive, +5 :edr: and +1 :crit:
    Lv1: True Aim: 14% Bleeding Out on hit, +5 :edr: and +1 :crit:
    Lv2: Masterfull Maskman: 16% Crippling Wound on hit, +5 :edr: and +2 :crit:

    Perfect, now lets analyse it.

    It gives a total of +15 :edr: and +4 :crit:.
    It gives 2 passive attacks that are the same as the Lv4 of any classic weapon skill line.

    Ok, now let's compare with other similar skill lines:

    Perception gives 15 :edr:, 10 :dodge: , 5 :sight:, 3 :trap_sense: and 2 :trap_level: passive. Craft Junk, A strong buff, a support skill and a active ranged attack skill.

    Archery serves 16 :edr:, 6 :crit: and 6 :dmg_piercing:, plus 3 passive attacks and ammo recovery rate.

    Thrown Weapons adds 6 :edr:, 6 :crit:, 2 :dodge: and 4 :dmg_crushing:, a Active skill, 3 passive atacks and ammo recovery rate.

    And another Skill lines already mentioned that could enter on the comparison.

    Seeing now Archery I simply lost my ideas! Anything added to Deadshot can easily overpower archery. If it add any pushback/snare active skill it would be absurd.

    I'll need to rethink this later.
    Kazeto and OmniNegro like this.
  7. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    I think we are experiencing a thread split. If we want to fix archery, we should make a thread specifically for that. We can link to relevant parts of this thread as needed.

    If we are going to bring back Deadshot, there are a few things that need ironed out before we even talk about what skills to give it.

    1. Is this purely to get the achievement? If so, I bet we can work out a quick hotfix executable that will log the deadshot achievement once run, then you can continue playing and perhaps focus on Archery being fixed.

    2. If you care nothing for the achievement, and just want deadshot to be useful, we need to discuss how to *ACTUALLY DO IT* rather than ideas that cannot be done.

    Balance must be observed. We cannot make it the one and only important skill to have. That guarantees it will be nerfed in the next patch after we manage to convince Gaslamp to put it back in. And they will not look kindly upon us making it insanely potent. Balance. Say it with me. "Bal-Ance"...

    I hate to be a jerk to those with good ideas, but how can they be implemented? Do not misunderstand, I love reading even the crazy stuff that cannot currently be done. But Gaslamp is going to be *MUCH* more easily convinced to reintegrate Deadshot if we can make a working mod with a similar name and demonstrate that it is not bugged to Diggle Hell and back.

    So keep the ideas coming. But please, if you know the limitations of the engine, do not waste your time typing suggestions that *WE* cannot do. Gaslamp is pretty happy with the game at current. And I wager they spend an agonizing amount of time fixing the few bugs that ruin the game for people. They are not going to be easy to convince to reintegrate this until we have a demonstrable skilltree that is pretty much bug free.

    /rant off
    Kyrie and Kazeto like this.
  8. Nikolai

    Nikolai Member

    Not only a mod that works, but one that people like, too. And that has a place in the base game.

    Don't ask me what constitutes a place in the base game. I would say 1) Balanced and 2) Fills a new, distinct gameplay style. But that's conventional wisdom. I'm not familiar with GLG's eldritch thought processes on game design.
    Kyrie, Kazeto and OmniNegro like this.
  9. Turbo164

    Turbo164 Member

    I heard a while back that you could open the last.txt in your Dredmor folder, replace one of the numbers with Deadshot (13 I think?), start a new character with "repeat last skillset" and you'd have Deadshot in all its 3 skillpoint achievement glory. Did that get removed?
    OmniNegro likes this.
  10. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Ironically, I never heard of this. I may have to try it and see.
  11. Kyrie

    Kyrie Member

    Yes, it works, but the number is 12.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  12. Maze1125

    Maze1125 Member

    I just tested the trick and 14 was the number that worked for me.
    OmniNegro and Kyrie like this.
  13. Kyrie

    Kyrie Member

    Haha, Sorry!

    (wait, that must be because the two new weapon skills.)
    OmniNegro likes this.
  14. Nikolai

    Nikolai Member

    I just realized Omni has Liked every single post on this page of the thread excluding his own posts. But you know, I'm sure if he could Like his own posts too he would.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  15. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    Likes cost nothing, and newer users need some love too. :)
    Doc Gelegentlich and Maze1125 like this.
  16. The complete skill tree is still in the skillDB, you just need to erase the deprecated flag. Still, it would be nice if Gaslamp could revive it officially with more skills and a bit more balance.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  17. Kazeto

    Kazeto Member

    He's got a... rather unique thingy of his in that he marks every post he agrees with or thinks is good even if he doesn't quite agree with the content. Ergo, he does that a lot.
    Not that it's a bad thing, as that way we know if he likes some idea or not without him having to create a senseless post that would be just a quote with a "I like that post" comment.

    And getting back onto the topic (kind of), I'll reply to your earlier reply that Archery as a skill tree is not useless. You are right, it is not. But the fact is, it is really overshadowed by other skills because the bonuses it provides you with aren't as good as you'd expect from a weapon proficiency skill tree (never mind the fact that there is only one alternative skill tree for ranged weaponry, so it is bound not to be as strong as the melee weapon proficiency skill trees) which is easily apparent if you take a look at things like Perception, and you get one activated ability which isn't all that interesting (not useless, but people expect things to kind of be interesting). Sure, the ammo recovery rate is nice, but most high-level bolts can't be recovered anyway, so people might want to take Tinkering instead to be able to get more of these.
    And that pretty much makes it into a "filler" skill tree. Not something that is useless, but something people choose for their skill set if they have all they have already and still have a slot left.
    OmniNegro and Shwqa like this.
  18. OmniaNigrum

    OmniaNigrum Member

    That is probably the most succinct way of saying it I have heard. Kazeto is entirely right.

    I "Like" things that I read and understand the concept of even if I disagree wholeheartedly with them. The forum has rules about not bumping posts without reason and not making useless posts. I *Do* make useless posts. But when I am tempted to reply, I often will notice the "Like" option and remember that I should not unless I have a useful message to convey.

    There are exceptions to this, but the general concept is right there.

    If Daynab or anyone else at Gaslamp asked me to tone it down, I admit it would be a hard transition. But they have not threatened to mulch me and feed me to Clockwork Atrocities for the crime of Mass Like Spamming yet. :D

    To be fair, there are a few here who have not gotten a tenth the "Likes" from me as they deserve. This is mostly due to my own speculation on what they meant. And over time, I forgot about those posts. (If you are one of those people, know that I "Like" your posts too. I just did not click the button.)

    The recent Daggle images posted by Ruigi made me want to "Like" his posts just so I could have the solace of the "Unlike" button. :)
    Kazeto, Turbo164 and Shwqa like this.
  19. HenrySpock

    HenrySpock Member

    Seems like this would actually revamp the Archery tree, there really isn't 'Archery' in the game, only arbalism.

    In which case, "Decurion of the Arbalists" would be a great summon skill. Summon 3 undead archers for 60 turns... they could be from the named graves.
    OmniNegro likes this.
  20. Nikolai

    Nikolai Member

    I can't say I would ever want a pet skill in a weapon tree. That has more to do with my personal distaste for pets in Dredmor. But really, why would a weapon skill have pets in it?
    OmniNegro and FaustoMartense like this.