BETA 54 BETA 54: YES, INSPECTOR

Discussion in 'Clockwork Empires General' started by Nicholas, Aug 26, 2016.

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  1. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

  2. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    Oh, actually 53C -> 54 changes:
    • the end-game stats screen got hooked up to real numbers
    • the Laboratory is now upgradable
    • character emotes won't draw over the UI anymore
    • beetle lacquer belongs to the player now
    • terrain flattening is now slightly faster
    • maybe fixed obscure obeliskian scriperror
    • fixed standing door 5x recipe
    • fixed the 5x versions of recipes showing up in command tooltips
     
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  3. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Okay, well, apparently there WERE some changes. NOBODY TELLS ME ANYTHING
     
  4. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    It's for your own protection.
     
  5. dbaumgart

    dbaumgart Art Director Staff Member

    Hey, they were all in the changelog! I believe you automatically get email updates when it's changed? And Slack notifications?
     
  6. Mikel

    Mikel Waiting On Paperwork From The Ministry. Forever.

    @Nicholas I wanted to say how impressed I am at how accurate your 24 hour warning in the community colony thread turned out to be
     
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  7. DaCrAzYmOfO

    DaCrAzYmOfO Member

    Bahahha I got the update on steam before I saw the 54 post here which is why I raged! Where the change logs!!!
     
  8. Manamoo

    Manamoo Member

    So I saw in passing on Steam that the full release is coming? So there will be nothing done about the Upkeep **yes I am a broken record**...because that is the one thing that broke the game for me. The tweaks are just not enough...it doesn't fit...and it's not fun...at all. Games should be fun...and this game was the funnest of all fun for me...until Upkeep came about...it just doesn't fit...I thought it was going to be more about the Lovecraftian, insanity with the building management as the icing on the top of a really decadent cake...now the icing has spoiled...and I know I'm not the only one out there...it just seems like you guys are just so hell bent on it that you are ignoring the people that paid for the game, in Early Access...and expensive at that for an early access. I admire you guys for all your hard work and late nights and colds, plagues, still working through to make the game. I'm not trying to offend...but I just feel so horribly let down by the lack of response...I'm so sad that the funnest of the fun games is now just collecting virtual dust on my desktop...the longing to play...and the frustration and just let down feeling I get when I do. I have been very vocal on the Upkeep thing...and with logical reasons behind it. Even ideas to maybe make it a bit easier of a pill to swallow...and while I see responses to most all other people, I get silence from the devs...from the players, I get support...I really hope you guys see this and really take into account of a player perspective...one that has promoted you on her blog...that has gotten a few people to buy your game...and I just feel very let down by a system implemented that feels like a punishment...a step away from the twisted insanity of Lovecraftian humour I thought the game was going to grow into.
     
  9. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    Disclaimer: these aren't my systems. I didn't design 'em, and my implementation work is pretty scattered; I did the code for the jobs system to make the workshop and building upkeep handled by the workshop owner crew, and should really extend that to everything else. That said:

    The version of upkeep in 54 is the version that shipped with 53C. We still don't have enough feedback on it to judge appropriately (and probably won't for a bit) what other work needs to be done there. Honestly, 53C is the first one where people actually do the upkeep consistently enough and bug-freely enough that we can actually look at it as a feature to see if it has the desired impact without bugs and things getting in the way (it takes a bit to get us to the point where stability is not an issue for *any* new feature) and then what adjustments, if any, need to be made. It's also worth noting that upkeep for modules already existed in previous builds, and it was just an undocumented implicit mess where modules would stop working and random commodities would get lifted and dropped off to make things happen.
    The decision to switch upkeep from modules not working to modules working slowly in 53C was exactly in response to player feedback, as was the "advanced workbench". We seriously considered a proposal where we re-skin the entire thing as "taxes" but not changing any of the mechanics just to see if people were happier, but then decided that everybody would immediately want the ability to be tax cheats and to start bandit colonies and re-staging the American Revolution with Cogs - which is an interesting idea, but it's definitely something to think about in terms of event arcs and not something that is a mechanical system. We do have methods to our madness, and a lot of that has to do with "taking a player perspective into account", but a large part of the job of being a designer is to interpret what the player says they want, and then to figure out what the real problem is. Usually, if we immediately read a player suggestion and say "that sounds great, let's do that", it's a trainwreck. The real question then becomes, "what is the problem occurring that made the player suggest that?" and that's a harder problem to answer. It may take a few swings at it.

    With regards to the cosmic horror: the way to think about it is that you have a sandwich. The sandwich has meat and bread in it. To make the sandwich more moist, you put mayonnaise on the sandwich. Dredmor was much the same way - it was a meat and bread game. You go around, you click monsters, you do inventory management. We then put a lot of mayo on it, in the forms of wacky humor and theming and so on and so forth, sometimes to work around the fact that the initial version of Dredmor that was publicly released also had its rough edges (which were later mostly smoothed out in, ugh, a year and a half of patches.) In this case the mayo is definitely more gameplay element related, and cosmic horror is still being added and developed, but it is mayo. You are asking for a sandwich composed entirely out of mayonnaise. ("It's Good For You!") If we did that we'd have, I don't know, Wacky Elder Gods in Space or something. Everybody thinks they want that, and many have tried, but in fact you end up with a terrible game because... there's no game there!

    Previous implementations of cults and cultism definitely tried to be more "mayonnaise-heavy", but then you run into the fundamental conflict that you sort of want cults to be a bad thing with consequences. Otherwise, you can't have... well, consequences, which are fun - and then there's no point of having cults other than getting to choose whether or not your colonists wear the purple robes or not.

    We can definitely put more mayonnaise on. We can even make the mayonnaise more fattening! But you still need a sandwich and things matter like the quality of the bread, in this case represented by the graphics engine, and uh, whatever the meat is.

    So, uh, yeah. Have a little faith! (We had the exact same problems with the food, and everybody was convinced that the food system we currently have in place was also ruining the game, forever... about four months ago.)
     
  10. Alavaria

    Alavaria Member

    Well if you combined the hard food system and the hard upkeep systems, the players would soon be joining cults.

    Farming & Zoning Simulator 2015 was rather.... amusing, in a way.
     
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  11. DaCrAzYmOfO

    DaCrAzYmOfO Member

    I've been around since the game launched on steam and I don't remember the food system being different, elaborate please!

    I do however remember only one map style, friendly fishmen that would actually gift you stuff, weaveries, and weapons without lockers. Fun times lol
     
  12. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    We had a bunch of complaints of users being unable to feed everybody, having 3/4 of their colony spent on food, that sort of thing.
     
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  13. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    Frankly, I miss cannibalism.
     
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  14. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    (It's still there! You just have to work for it!)
     
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  15. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    ...

    at least I think it's still there. *makes note to check*
     
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  16. Unforked

    Unforked Member

    A couple of builds ago I starved a hundred pop colony and they refused to eat eachother - this is after foraging every possible thing. They just starved and died in groups, with plenty of bodies around.

    I think they ate bandits though... which is technically cannibalism, but not nearly as fun as the inter-colony feasting.
     
  17. mcnostril

    mcnostril "The First To Crash"

    Hmmm... Were the super brave colonists fixed since 53B? I recall seeing notes to that effect in 53C but not noticing much of a difference in the conga line of death, and I've just had a foreign attack with a woefully unprepared military that should have been a massacre (I mean, it still was, just not on my end).

    I have however noticed that the "feels safe" rating seems to have a fairly big impact on the colonists' mood (maybe it always did but now it's more visible?) but their Foul Moods did not seem to prevent every civilian in the vicinity from mobbing foreign invaders to death.
    I know balance is an ongoing process in all the moods and things, but having a bunch of colonists go through combat, then watch a fishperson butcher and eat several corpses didn't seem to have all that much of an effect . My colonies seem to go Happy>Angry a lot, but I don't often see despair or fear unless triggered by special events (actually this save was the first time I ever saw someone stop working due to despair, and that lasted like one workshift).

    I'll try to get a screenshot next time it happens, but I've been getting a bunch of colonists carrying invisible items. It's hard to tell if they're actually carrying something that is invisible or just stuck in the animation while they go pick/put something down.

    Also I'm still not sold on the position for the tooltip at the very bottom right. I think it wouldn't bug me as much if it wasn't completely glued to the corner, like with a TV safe border or something, cos right now it's still really weird to shift your gaze there, especially since most of the actual interface things are on the left (that's rather interesting actually, how most of the direct gameplay stuff is on the left. I bet someone somewhere has written Interesting Things about focal areas and such).
     
  18. Nicholas' mention of mayonnaise immediately made me think back to the speech he gave on Dungeons of Dredmor a few years ago. I watch it every once in awhile just because it's hilarious. It's worth a view if you have the time:
     
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  19. Nicholas

    Nicholas Technology Director Staff Member

    (I had way more hair at the start of this project.)
     
  20. Alavaria

    Alavaria Member

    On Steam? At least was this rumor reflected on the forums here where there's gaslamp people commenting very regularly?
     
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